Sonny Liston (1959) vs James J Jeffries (1904) - who would have won?

He held the title for longer.

He defended the title more times.

He didnt lose as many fights.

He beat more world champions.

Is there any other conclusion?

 

To me, it is more the second part than the first. Liston was great in this department. The truth is no one knows who is stronger. In physical dimensions the advantage is probably with Jeffries, but we all know that this is not always the determinative factor.

 

1. Liston never came close to losing a fight based on "Cuts", so this attempt to pin that label on liston is nitpicking at it's finest.


2. Didnt Jeffries suffer severe facial damage in some of his fights? Like against supermiddleweights Choynski and Fitz? didn't 5'8 175lb sharkey bust his face up?

Please Elaborate..I would love to see where you go with this.

Liston took on the three hardest punchers of his era.

6'5 207lb Mike Dejohn
6'3 211lb Nino Valdes
6'3 215lb Cleveland Williams

Liston went 4-0 with 4 knockouts against these men. I think Williams compares well to Jeffries. Both Big, Strong, and very fast fighters.


Let me ask you..What punchers did Jeffries fight that had the size and high rating of these men? I might be reaching for this, but it appears to me Jeffries never fought a big man who could punch. Liston did. Jeffries is a bit unproven against punchers. Bob Fitzsimmons could hit, but Jeffries had a 40lb weight advantage on him.

Hmmm..

I seem to remember Cleveland Williams landing his sunday punches on Liston, and Liston took them without blinking. Nino Valdes said he hit Liston with his best punch, and Liston took it with no problem. Mike Dejohn got a in a couple good licks on Liston, and Sonny ate them up and kept coming. A couple Floyd Patterson combinations bounced off Liston's head the way a basketball bounces of a brick wall.

You are grasping for straws..

1. Jack Johnson knocked out Jeffries. floored him 3 times. Do you hold this against his chin?

2. Leotis Martin is in the Rings Top 100 punchers of all time list. He killed a man with his fists(Sonny Banks)

3. Marty Marshall was rated top 10 by Ring Magazine when he fought Liston according to the 4th Edition of the Boxing Register. Bet you didn't know that? (it was a flash knockdown)

1. He fought almost 8 rounds with a broken Jaw, despite being in severe pain

2. He fought back and finished a big powerful contender in the next round, after getting his nose broken.

I think these are signs

Liston might not even need to face adversity against Jeff. He might just beat the crap out of him for 7 rounds before the ref steps in and saves Jeffries life.

Why not? What men of Listons size, strength, power, ability did Jeff ever fight? Did Jeff ever get a jab smashed right into his face like Liston's?


Fitzsimmons was a 37 year old 167lber sporting a 40lb weight disadvantage and still managed to turn jeffries face into raw burger meat.

Choynski was 163lb, giving up a 67lb weight disadvantage and managed to not only last 20 rounds with Jeffries, but get a draw in the process. Gosh, can you imagine throwing a 163lber in the ring with Liston?

5'8 180lb Tom Sharkey was several inches shorter, and several pounds lighter than Jeffries..yet managed to slug it out with Jeff for 50 rounds. Can you imagine a man that size attempting to slug it out with Liston, and lasting that many rounds? Floyd Patterson, who was bigger, faster, and a better puncher than sharkey..lasted only 2 rounds trying to emulate that plan.

I think Jeffries is very unproven in regards to his ability to handle a fighter like Sonny Liston. I would not be surprised one bit if Liston blew him away early.

1. Williams had faster speed than Liston. Didn't do him much good.

2. Better defense? where did you come to this conclusion? Sonny had terrific head movement in his prime. He could Bob and Weave and slip any jab out there. Very smooth and rhythmic upper body movement. Liston, in the late 50s particularly also knew how to dart in and out of range effectively with his feet.

Better Stamina? Why because he fought 25 rounds at a slow pace? Liston fought 12 hard paced rounds against Eddie Machen, posting a high workrate, and Sonny looked like he could have gone another 12 if need be.

Chin? No. Liston is more proven against bigger harder hitting opponents in his prime

Heart? I'll give Jeff the edge here.


Liston holds the edge in most major areas like Two fisted Power, Combination Punching, Body Attack, Uppercut, Left Hook, Right hand, Accuracy, Technique, Left Jab, Head Movement, Upperbody Movement, Boxing Skills, Technique, Defense, Chin.


I notice, you completely neglected Sonny Liston's fine left jab. How is Jeff going to manage that?

Im fine with your prediction. Just give better reasoning than the same old **** your spew everytime. Your like a broken record the way you nitpick other fighter's "Holes" while looking the opposite direction of your favorite fighters flaws.

 

Why? Let's look at the tale of the tape. Liston's measurements were bigger.

 

This doesn't mean ****. Many champions can sit on their throne and have one or two easy defenses every once in a while. Liston lost it because he was 31 when he fought for the belt(Jeffries was already retired by now) and had the bad luck of running into possibly the greatest heavyweight of all time at the age of 33. Jeffries drew the color line while champion. This hurts him in my eyes. Liston already cleaned out his division before he won the title. There was no one left to fight.

1. He drew the color line once he became champion

2. He never fought past his prime(retired at age 29) like Liston did. These are contributing factors.

He didn't beat them in their primes

1. Fitz was 37 and 40 years old when he fought Jeffries.

2. Corbett was 33 and 36 years old when he fought Jeffries. Corbett had not won a fight in 6 years prior to the Jeffries fight.

Liston defeated 26 year old Floyd Patterson 2x. Patterson was young and in his prime.

Yes

1. Liston was far more dominant in his prime(often against bigger and more polished fighters than Jeffries era)

2. Liston never drew the color line.

3. Liston cleaned out his era more consistently and dominantly than Jeffries did.

4. Liston beat better opposition

5. Jeffries retired without facing Jack Johnson. Liston fought the best of his era.

 

Nope. We can't.


Liston defeated

6'3 215lb Cleveland Williams 2x
6'3 211lb Nino Valdes
6'5 207lb Mike Dejohn
6'3 215lb Henry Clark
6'3 193lb Billy Hunter
6'6 225lb Gerhard Zech
6'5 230lb Chuck Wepner
6'2 210lb Amos Lincoln
6'2 200lb Amos Johnson
6'2 200lb Roger Rischer
6'1 200lb Zora Folley
5'11 204lb Wayne Bethea
5'11 201lb Willie Besmanoff
6'2 204lb Howard King

Plus i left out a few clubfighters over 200lb he fought very early in his career.



Jeffries defeated one man of similiar size

6'1 200lb Gus Ruhlin




So I think you should rethink your statment about liston "picking on small fighters".

 

1. Marshall did not take on a prime Sonny Liston. He took on a Liston in just his 5th pro fight. Liston hardly had any amatuer experience. Marshall was the seasoned pro, who was currently a top 10 rated fighter in the world.

2. I think it's very unfair to say marshall gave him "fits". Marshall, a herky jerky pivoting extremley unorthdox fighter caught a laughing Liston with a punch and broke his jaw in the 4th round. Despite the break, he was still unable to put liston on the floor and won a very close split decision victory. In the rematch, Liston destroyed Marshall flooring him several times before finishing Marshall off in the sixth round. Marshall said of this fight "he beat me like no man should ever be beaten. It was so painful." In the 3rd fight, Liston won all 10 rounds. Marshall ran away. he said "There was no way I was going to let liston hit me like last time". So essentially, i think Liston showed in the 2nd and 3rd fights that this was far from a "difficult" style matchup for him

 

How do you know he didn't apply his strength well in the ring, though?

I mean, most of the fights he did win, was because he either scored a stoppage late in the fight or had his best rounds after the 15th. That indicates his opponent tired because of all the wrestling against the stronger opponent.

You can list a 180lbs Sharkey going the distance with him, but Machen is roughly the same weight and went the distance with Liston without being hurt, too. Not to mention Whitehurst 2x. Does that mean Sonny didn't apply his strength? Of course not.

I think these are very closely matched in the strength department. Just like Lewis and Klitschko were.

 

At the time Sullivan and Jeffries were fighting. the Olympic 100yds dash was won in a time over 10 seconds ,don't beleive all the hype.

 

I'd favour Jeffries, only because he was tougher.

 

Chris, Jeffries only stopped one fighter past the 15th rd a 33 year old Corbett whom he outweighed by 30lbs.Corbett had not had a fight in 2 years ,nor won one in 6 years.Is it surprising his stamina ran out and he eventually succumbed to the younger, heavier man?
Over 10r ds, the distance of the Machen fight, Corbett would have won handily.
Sharkey went 45rds with Jeffries coming forward all night, fight accounts describe him "charging in".

Machen went 10 rds with Liston by back pedalling allnight.an appreciable difference ,I think.

Machen was 28 years old and had had 4 fights that year, [ 1960 ], over very respectable opposition.Machen scaled 196 for the Liston fight a difference of 15 lbs,half of the 30lbs weight disparity between Corbett and Jeffries.
Again an appreciable difference.


I beleive Liston's fights did not go as long as Jeffries ,because he had significantly more power than Jeffries.I dont see Corbett going 23rds with him ,I dont see Choynsky going 20 rds with him, I dont see a 37 year old Fitz going 11rds, nor Sharkey going a total of 45rds.

 

None of us have seen those fighters in their primes, or Jeffries even, so it's almost meaningless to make such statements.

 

I don't beleive Liston had issues with punchers,his 2 fights with Williams ,and his fights with Valdes ,and Dejohn support my belief.
Examples of Liston in fire fights ,while in his prime,and after all that is what we are supposed to be comparing, show he rose above adversity and kod his man twice [Williams].Jeffries was involved in several firefights ,2 with Sharkey ,one with Choynsky,and 2 with Fitz, none ended early,is that some how a negative for Liston?
I should say rather ,it reflects negatively on Jeffries,who could not put his men away with the dispatch Sonny showed,in a "Kill or be killed " scenario, I would hazard a guess that plenty of posters would be happy to back Sonny in a fire fight.

 

This is the Classic Forum,we are supposed to make educated guesses as to how we think hypothetical matchups would go, based on their respective records,snatches of film , interviews with their opponents etc, and what we have read,otherwise what is the point of the Forum?

 

Liston fought rakes of big men, the smaller guys he fought tended to be active fighters too, not old men coming out of retirement.

Liston was not much of a late ko artist?
Well ,that's true,and the reason is not many could absorb his power into the later rounds ,they tended to fold earlier,unlike all of Jeffries best opponents .