Sonny Liston (1959) vs James J Jeffries (1904) - who would have won?

I am wrong. Clark was rated even higher at # 7. According to the The Hartford Courant in June of 1968.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/courant...Rounder+To+Be+Seen+Live+in+Color&pqatl=google



According to the Evening Independent, Clark is rated # 7 in the world

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...1583&dq=sonny+liston+ranked+henry+clark&hl=en




According to Herald Tribune, Clark was rated 5th when he fought Liston

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...7754&dq=sonny+liston+ranked+henry+clark&hl=en



"Sonny Liston's opponent, Henry Clark, was the 5th rated heavyweight in the world going into Saturday night."- July 8 1968 Chicago Tribune



According to the New York Times,


Clark was rated # 5 by World Boxing Association and # 9 by Ring Magazine


The Milwaukee Journeal said "Clark dropped down to 8th in the latest rankings after his loss to Liston"

 

Absolutely

 

Mcgrain,


It's amazing how Mendoza is trying to claim liston picked on smaller opponents like Jeffries. Liston defeated 4x the amount of ranked 200lbers Jeffries did. Liston defeated the 3 biggest punchers of his era, all who stood at least 6'3 and weighed above 200lb. Jeffries never fought a puncher who weighed above 200lb. Liston also defeated 20 other men who were at least 200lb, Jeffries only defeated 1 man. Men like Mike Dejohn, Wayne Bethea, and Henry Clark, were all top 10 rated when Liston fought them. It's amazing how many liston destractors deny these ratings.

 

Dejohn could hit like a truck. So could Valdes. and Williams too. Munroe couldn't crack an egg, or flatten his sister with his best punch.

 

1. I was under the impression it was consensus, I've certainly heard many say they have it to Walcott, SuzieQ amongst them and yes there were a good few

2. Those are relevant factors and they affect how much speed/mass is behind the shots and how the power is transfered. The same basic equation stands. Does fitz get better leverage/explosiveness/force than Moore, doubtful

3. Yes its possible Jackson hit harder than Fitz who had 7lbs on him given he was a more explosive athlete, I'm not sure he hit harder but its possible given another 167lber in his own era is said to hit harder than Fitz. Moore at his heavest had 23lbs on Fitz and all of it lean explosive muscle. Moore ko'd heavyweights in a better era that were more skilled, bigger and better

4. Fitz was in an inferior era when the sport was in its infancy. Was Louis up for these fights he didnt get stopages in? Power is usually the last thing to go

5. Fitz himself was 36 and inactive when he faced Jeffries. Previously he ko'd 2 bums and Corbett. I believe Louis was fighting far harder opposition in a better era.

Now by your own logic you must be in agreement because Corbett only had 13fights, he was far less experienced than Louis's opponents. Its your logic I'm going by here not mine, I personally believe the talent pool increased and skills developed.

6. Yes Choynski is a bigger puncher than Fitz, probably not as big a puncher as Gerald McClellan though. Fitz power is clearly a myth

7. Ofcourse Fitz was a puncher, an accurate 1 too. Is his power massively overrated? Ofcourse. He was knocking out the men of his era wearing next to know padding in his gloves, BUT his era consisted of more small men, had a smaller talent pool, clearly less skilled men, in a time of poverty where there were far less good big men because of this. The poverty meant the average bodyweight was far lower and averages heights were far lower. There were big men but they werent very good. This is obvious because the only big man who was any good was Jeffries, who in turn clearly had sub standard skills by todays standards

Simply put there were no big good men to put Fitz in his place

8. Did I say LeStarza? I meant Layne, who was a strong powerful puncher from what I've seen of him

9. Jones would shut Monzon out 15-0 :yep (Jones had 26 fights making him twice as good as Corbett on McGrains number of fights = quality scale). I do agree to an extent, because experience/sparring/amateur experience all develop ring craft and the lack of experience many men had in the 1890s means its an era where ring craft isn't at its highest

 

I agree with this

 

Fitzsimmons hit hard in the same class as Langford, Dempsey and Louis, according to people who watched them all.

 

Ok, I will break them down too.

Corbett was 33 had been retired for 2 years ,and had not won a fight for 6 years,up to the end of the 10th round,[ the distance of the Machen /Liston fight], he was undeniably ahead,he eventually succumbed in the 23rds rd after having an early lead.

Machen was 28 had fought 4 times that year losing only the first one to top rated Zora Folley,he had beaten 3 fringe contenders in Alex Miteff,Alonzo Johnson,and Billy Hunter.
Machen weighed 196lbs to Liston's 211lbs 15lbs disparity.
Corbett weighed 188lbs to Jeffries 218lbs 30 lbs disparity.

Choynsky.
Choynsky was a big puncher ,Jeffries ,Corbett,and Fitz ,called him the biggest puncher they met, but he was not very durable if you could land on him ,you could ko him.

Sharkey,McCoy,Walcott,Goddard ,Corbett,turned the trick.
Kid Carter stopped him in 1 rd,he was kod a total of 10 times.
Jeffries was raw, but had a 52lbs weight advantage.

Fitzsimmons .
I love Fitz, but he could be hit, Corbett had no trouble landing on him, and he also dropped him,I honestly cannot see a 167lbs man combating Liston on equal terms.

Sharkey.
Sharkey was a come forward brawler, his style should have been perfect for the bigger, stronger, heavier Jeffries ,yet he went the distance TWICE,Fitz wrecked him, with early one punch kos TWICE.
Jeffries had an injured arm? Anything wrong with it in their first fight?

Liston was not prime when he fought Ali, we are not sure of his age but it was probably mid to late 30's .
He was not in great shape for the fight ,which was against one of, if not the greatest heavyweights ever,Sonny had a total of 4 rds ring combat under his belt in the 3 years preceding this fight, yet he was competitive early.
Turn it around, Tom Sharkey 183lbs 5'8'' he is incessantly charging into Sonny ,does he go 25rds and 20rds?
That's my case.

 

It's true that Liston KO'd larger punchers than Jeffries.

On the other hand, do any of the men Liston beat quite compare to Fitzsimmons in terms of KO-defeating the best opposition his time (Jeffries excepted)?

Anyways, it must be remembered that each beat the best of their time.
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People who saw Jeffries vs. Corbett I and Fitzsimmons II thought Jeffries opponents showed excellent form.

Corbett atleast somewhat outboxed Jeffries in their first encounter; whether he did more than that -- indeed, whether he was leading at the time of the stoppage -- is hard to say, as different primary sources sing different songs ....

Jeffries was generally thought to have outboxed Fitzsimmons in their first encounter. Fitzsimmons-Jeffries II was regarded by those who saw it as a really great fight, with Fitzsimmons going to the face and Jeffries pounding the body. Both fighters were seen as doing effective work, with Jeffries body blows ultimately proving more telling.

 

Fitz had not had a fight in 2 years and was nearly 40 years old.He was also conceding 47 lbs to Jeffries.