4 legacy sealing wins for Wladimir in the near future

Possibly. WE dont really know. But he had the losses early in his career, to fighters who he ended up forging a must better record than. Then when he got his title with the win over Hart, he set off fighting the main contenders in the world, although in his case, they werent american, necessarilly. Arguably this is not too dissimilar to what Wlad did by fighting Peter, Thompson, Austin etc. Still, i would agree that Vlad is better because has fought more fighters. Still, we are yet to see him fight his Jack Johnson, unless you consider Chagaev or Byrd to be the Jack Johnson of this time. I realise it isnt a perfect match and i do rate Wlad higher than Tommy, as of now. But i am thinking that the actual reigns are not that far apart.

 

I have Rock at Number one!!!:happy:happy:hey:good - pipping Dempsey for the top spot - your going to crucify me for that i know - but i couldn't resist it haha

 

Joe Louis or Ali at #1 is good for me.
Dempsey at two? nah. haha

 

I blame the gullible media in this case because they bought into the undeserved hype about Burns's challengers, calling a mediocre slugger like Bill Lang a "perfect fighting machine" and so on. Burns took on built up opponents who no one knew much about. I wouldn't say that the likes of Langford, Jeannette and McVea were truly on the heavyweight horizon then so I don't really blame him for not fighting them. His one true challenger was Jack Johnson and he did eventually take him on, and got beat.

 

Bill lang was the best fighter in Australia. Not that bad on film where he KOd an ancient Fitz. In Fact, he probably did better in that fight than Williamson did against ancient McCall.

Jim Flynn was an up and coming boxer. He had already lost a fight against former world champion challenger Jack Root but he had also drawn with and beaten Burns previous conquereror Jack Twin Sullivan in the same year he got the title shot. He also drew and beat George Gardner who was a decent contender. And he was obviously highly thought of because he was one of Johnson's great white hopes and later had a win over Dempsey. Did, say, Lamon Brewster really do more, just because he beat Krasniqui and an ancient Golota, neither of which were really top class fighters. His win over Wlad is great, but seems out of character when compared to say his losses to Liakovitch, Holoukin, Helenius, Shufford, Ettiene and Wlad II. In fact, even his win over Wlad is arguably equalled by Flynn's win over Dempsey. With both fighters putting up brave efforts against the true versions of ATGs the faced (Wlad and JOhnson) but both walking away.

Byrd and Chagaev were well thought of champs who many people considered the best in the world. when wlad defended against them. But then again, Marvin Hart also fits this description. And Hart's signature win over Johnson is similar or better to Byrds signature win over Holyfield. Wow, it is surprising to me just how similar the two reigns really are.

Bill Squires was pretty much an undefeated KO machine when he met Burns. IN fact, he came into the fight as favourite. Very interesting. It sounds like many of the people that Wlad fought. Built up based on a big punching undefeated record. Sounds not all that different to Sam peter who followed his unsucessful shot by losing to the world class fighters he fought including struggling with a former middleweight. Although admittedly Squires struggles with theformer middleweight ended up as losses. And Squires also lost to contenders Bill Lang and Jim Flynn which tends to show that he was never world class and just all hype. Probably better to compare him to a Ray Austin or Tony Thompson in that regard. Gunner Moir was another like these guys. He had a good record, and was one of the best in Britain, with a good result on coming to Australia. This also equated to being one of the best in the world in his time. NOthing special, just a decent contender with a good but not outstanding record. Much like Austin or Thompson or quite a few others on Wlads record.

Jem Roche and Jack Palmer were also top contenders in their sanctioning body and like most of Wlads opponents had good built up local records. They were solid wins at the time.

Jack O'Brien was a top contender all his life, he defeated the previous World Champion, but also had some average losses there. but he drew with and defeated the former world champion, so there is some strong similarities to Hasim Rahman there.

Tommy was unlucky in that his reign was ended by an all time great in Jack Johnson. I suppose it is arguable that things could have been different if Johnson's last name was Brusso! Or perhaps David haye or someone soon will be Wlad's Jack Johnson. Who knows.

All in all, the reigns are not as different (relative to their time) as they seem to most, and yes i know that i may have given Tommys boys a few passes here and there, but they are not as far apart as they seem.

Incidentally, Wlad was stopped a lot more often, and lot more brutally, and by a much lower class of fighter, than Tommy ever was.

NOw if you consider Burns reign as the weakest ever or one of the weakest ever and not worthy of a high ranking based on his reign, wouldnt you think that Wlad might not be placed all that much higher, just yet.

 

But there is relly no Jack Johnson to Wlad's Burns in this era.

Now I think Wlad is a way better fighter than Burns mind you, but I dont see any one beating him, and that includes his brother imo.

 

I agree with that, though i prefer just to leave vitali out of his calculations, but dont forget that it is when JOhnson won the title, noone knew just how good he was. Imagine if Haye or Adamek were to beat Wlad and then winf for the next 7 years, lose to a young giant and then go another 7 years without losing a fight. If this were to happen, i am sure that those 100 years in the future might differ with our opinions. Still, i agree there isnt a jack Johnson and one isnt going to appear.

How does this affect their legacies though, does Wlad benefit from this?

I really think it depends on (as i said earlier in the thread) on what Wlad's victims do. It woulnt be that far fetched, for example to see Wlad beat Povetkin and retire and then to see Povetkin unify the titles and reign for the next 7 years as champion (maybe because there is no competition). But if this were to happen, is it far fetched that Povetkin might actually beat Wlad and therefore end up being his jack johnson

 

Not sure, I dont see Povetkin being Johnson either, but yeah if that were to happen it could happen, but Wlad regardless, would be view more in a Larry Holmes light than as a Tommy Burns.

I dont think Wlad will have that Dempsey, Louis, or Ali type of factor.

What will happen is Wlad will be like Holmes or even Rocky Marciano, not regarded highly as champs, no matter how well they clean out the divison,(Well Marciano did any way lol)

Once Wlad retires, Wlad will shoot up in the rankings like Holmes or Rocky.

It may be top 15 a few years after retirement, than he knock off the likes of Bowe perhaps(List of couse varys some people do rank Bowe that high(Yikes) and make the lower top ten. Not sure he shoot up in top 3 like Holmes did(Which I think is unearn, again list from list) but he be middle to bottom top ten imo.

 

my gut feeling is Wlad will be rated in many people's top five in years to came much as Lewis, he will be forgiven for his three losses like Lewis was for his two and he will retire not having lost again in two or so years.

I hope he or his brother are never rated over Lewis as on head to head or legacy neither were better.

 

As long as VK has that lost from Lewis, I dont think he will ever be rank over Lewis.

 

Wlad already beat Rahman back in 2008.

Lewis ducked Bowe? WTF? It was the other way round.

Briggs is out of the hw picture for ages. No way this fight happens.

Ruiz is retired.

 

Good point, how could i forget. Actually, i seriously think it is one of his better wins.

I said avoided, wasnt suggesting whose fault it was, just that for whatever reason the fight with the biggest rival didnt come off.

I was just trying to think about someone who is a bit of a name, but known to be nothing special even at their best. If you dont like briggs, then what about say Andrew Golota he never seems to ever be out of the heavyweight picture or maybe Fres Oquendo.

Really? I thought there would have been more celebrations and parties on the ESB forum. People use to beg for him to be retired.

 

Nah, not a Top5 win of his. Top10 perhaps.

True, the fight didn´t come off. Lewis did not avoid Bowe though. Wlad is avoiding his brother. I can see why and I can excuse it but it´s still avoiding.
You could make a better argument for Lewis avoiding Ruiz and Byrd than Bowe IMO.

Nah, none of them would get a shot at Wlad. Toney or Tua perhaps but even then ... no.

Yep, about two weeks ago. The buzz about Mayweather-Mosley let him slide away without much noise - I think there were two, three threads about it and most of the people wished him a good retirement. I think with his last fight he finally won the respect of most people. He earned it.
I was thinking making a thread about him and his career but I guess I wait a few month until the dust has settled a bit.