If Ali had retired after Manila.

I personally think he should have retired after Manilla. IMO nothing he did afterward really adds to his legacy and I think he hurt boxing's image a bit in the next two years.

 

Nothing he did after Manilla had any signifigance or contributed to his legacy. Had been interesting to see who would have ended up tog dog if he had retired.

 

I don't think it would affect his standing as HW GOAT or any viewing of his abilities, but names like Shavers and Norton are bound to improve anybody's record.

 

He wouldn't rank any higher. But he certainly would be in better health. Maybe his arms wouldn't have flailed as much when he lit the olympic flame back in the day. Sad.

 

I have always felt that the thrilla in Manilla should have been his last and final outing. Winning the heavy weight title a third time wasn't worth losing to Leon Spinks, and while Shavers, Norton and Young were pretty good scalps, a lot of people felt that Ali looked terrible in those fights, and may not even have deserved some of those decisions anyway.. The problem however, is that he apparently needed the money and wasn't ready financially to hang up the gloves.... He paid for this at a terrible price..

 

Ali and Holyfield seem to have the same warrior attitude but they both did not know when to stop.

 

Ive had a bit of a think about this and just for the sake of argument, you could make a resonable case for the heavyweight scene to be a lot different 75-85 than it panned out.
Again this is for the sake of argument but you coulda had Norton fighting Foreman again for the vacant title as he was coming off that Lyle win in 76 and you would have to fancy big george to repeat his KO. Maybe he wouldnt have fought Young and Holmes may have gotten an earlier shot at the title. Or then again, maybe Shavers got his shot before Holmes.
Its intriguing to say the least. There woulda been some good match-ups there

 

yes it would
he got the title for the third time... but other then that, his legacy would have been the same, and maybe he would've been able to talk better and communicate then he can now.

 

A Foreman-Shavers would be nice as would of course Foreman-Holmes. Would like to see Young-Holmes, too. At least some of those would probably have happened if Ali had retired.

 

it does make for an interesting set of questions.. As crazy as it may sound, perhaps the heavyweight division between 1975-1978 may have turned out to be stronger in the abscense of a faded Muhammad Ali.. For one thing, Leon Spinks would never have won the title, and I for one think that's a big plus. Ken Norton wouldn't have fallen victim to a concensus robbery at the hands of Ali in their third match, had it never happened... The Youngs and Shavers of the world may have emerged more brightly and like the other poster said, might even have made for some good matches against other men... I would have also liked to see Holmes emerge on the scene a year or two earlier than he actually did.. By 1976-77, he was probably ready to start beating some top flight guys, though Norton might have been a bit much for a greener Holmes...

 

Let's try a scenario. Ali retires and vacates the title in late 1975. A tournament takes place to appoint his successor, just like when he was stripped of the title. The fighters involved are Norton, Young, Shavers, Foreman, Lyle and Bobick, let's say. A still green Holmes is waiting in the wings, just like Frazier did 10 years earlier.

How does it pan out?

 

I suppose it depends on how quickley the tournament is decided, who's left standing, and weather or not they want anything to do with Holmes.. If Jimmy Young was eliminated early in the tournament by say, Norton then I think Foreman would have a very good chance of being a repeat champion... I don't see Lyle, Norton, Bobbick or Shavers beating him.. Had this really occurred, then its all a matter of if Foreman chose to face Holmes, avoid him, or retire all together.... Had the fight come off, then I'd favor Holmes to win in a match that I'm guessing would have taken place around 1977....

 

Coopman and Dunn were fine stoppage wins. Granted, Coopman did not belong in the ring with him, but Ali was a true world champion, the Lion of Flanders was on the best streak of his career, and I do not begrudge Muhammad the benefit of an easy defense after Manila.

Jimmy Young was damaging to his legacy, by creating the myth that forcing Muhammad to take the initiative was a sound strategy. But Ali was fine when making the fight earlier against opponents like Mac Foster, Blue Lewis and Joe Bugner. Less than a month after Young, he showed up at his lowest weight since Foreman, and picked apart British, Commonwealth and EBU Champion Dunn, a taller and feisty southpaw. Young wouldn't have been in the same ball park with the trim Ali of the Dunn fight. (And I don't think Muhammad was bullshitting when he said Dunn would have become champion if Ali was in the same poor condition he was for Young. Richard couldn't take a punch, but against Young, an obese Muhammad could barely deliver one. Dunn was in good shape, had spirit, and he'd won over the championship distance.)

Richard Dunn was an entirely appropriate challenger, even if over matched, again because Ali's was a world championship. I have no issue with a reigning reputable British, Commonwealth or European Titleholder getting a shot at the big prize, whether it's Cooper, Mildenberger, Bugner or Dunn. (And yes, I think Urtain would have been a suitable challenger for Frazier in 1970, between Joe's title fights with Jimmy Ellis and Bob Foster. Smoke was not quite as active a fighting champion as I thought he could have been. Of course Frazier would have trashed Urtain, but not before Jose's immense physical strength created some interesting situations for Joe to address.)

Dunn's significant because it showed how much Ali had evolved since southpaw Mildenberger gave him some problems a decade earlier. Moorer might have caused the Ali of Mildenberger a few headaches. The Ali of the Dunn fight would have destroyed MM with lead rights before Michael could ever reach the middle rounds. Thanks to Dunn, we got to learn that Muhammad figured out how to dispose of southpaw competition before he retired.

Post Manila Ali was potent against Dunn and Coopman, then seemed to lose that potency following those final two career stoppage wins. What happened? On June 26, 1976, Antonio Inoki took away his legs in that incredibly foolhardy farce in Tokyo. The Ali of the Dunn fight should have been able to take out Evangelista, and the Ali of the Dunn fight might have been able to secure a far less controversial decision win in his defense against Norton. Between Manila and Shavers, I think Inoki did more damage to Ali than Coopman, Young, Dunn, Norton and Evangelista put together. Normally, the legs are the first to go, and Inoki accelerated that process when Muhammad was at an age when he could least afford to expose his legs to that kind of abuse and injury. (Likewise, Dempsey's hip was never the same after Firpo shoved him out of the ring, where Jack landed on it. Dempsey wrote in 1977 that it hurt him for the rest of his life. I think it's an overlooked aspect of his dramatic deterioration between Firpo and Tunney.)

Where Muhammad's neurological function is concerned, too much is made of Kinshasa and Manila, and not enough about what Shavers did. Earnie really nailed Holmes only a few times (although he's indicated the punch he floored Larry with was the hardest single shot he ever landed). He hammered the body of Tiger Williams relentlessly, but rarely reached Tiger's chin. He repeatedly knocked Muhammad silly with singular flashing rights, and nobody else ever stood up to Earnie's head shots with that kind of regularity. For me, Shavers cements Ali's claim to having an all time chin, and that came in Muhammad's final successful defense. In the two matches with Leon Spinks, and the comeback attempts against Holmes and Berbick, his timing and coordination seem off (even in the win over Leon), and I believe Earnie's power damaged his motor functioning.

Again, while Dunn was clearly nowhere near the same class as Shavers, Norton or Young, the fact remains that he got in great shape for Dunn as a result of the Young scare, and he looked superb just three and a half weeks after facing Jimmy. (I'd like to see one of today's heavyweight champions defend his title twice within a month!)

Let's give him some credit for how he began 1976. Frazier took 11 months off after the FOTC. Coming out of Manila, Ali defended the title three times within the first six months of the year, and capped the year off with the Norton rubber match. He was a great fighting champion, far more so than Frazier, Liston or Foreman. (Thanks to Muhammad, I was conditioned to expect a great heavyweight champion to defend his title four times a year. Holmes did this in 1980 and 1983, Tyson in 1987, and the GOAT himself risked it FIVE times in 1966, as well as four times in 1975 and 1976. The exile deprived us of boxing's first 30 defense champion.)