Joe Frazier vs. Rocky Marciano

This reads borderline smug/elitist.

 

Yes, I have been involved with fighters as an investor and involved in management and promotional rights and currently have a % of a fighter, I rather not say who he is because I rather remain anonymous on this site so I can feel free to give my honest opinion. I can tell you my current fighter is not a Heavyweight and he is undefeated.

I do not take a front seat in the engineering of a fighter and it is not what I do primarily but I have been involved in the game close -up from the time I was a youngster. I have had family that was deeply involved in many aspects of the sport.

I used to have a different opinion when I was young loved the undefeated, outside appearance guys and had many astute opinions around me that would tell me my chosen fighter would lose and why, I hated it but learned the hard way, you can never tell in boxing and I made a habit of looking closer but its hard in boxing there are so many factors.

I remember going to a fight in the garden sure that Undefeated 6"3 1/2 Big Mac Foster 24-0 24 KO's was going to take little Jerry QUARRY'S HEAD OFF and one of my uncles said , yea the big guy has power but can he get hit back....Mac looked great and I was waiting for the boom but Jerry boxed smart went to the body and boom Stopped Mac in the 6th...I could not believe it but I learned through the years that things are not always what they seem and a lot of this game is internal

 

By the way Teddy may have said that Frazier threw more punches than Marciano and Frazier was the fighter he was promoting Marciano was dead but he never as far as I know said Frazier would have beaten Marciano

I spoke to Teddy many times and he love Louis, Marciano, Dempsey and a lot of the guys before his promotion days

 

I thought the first puncher Foreman fought was Frazier. Norton wasn't bad either ...Lyle was a very risky fight for Foreman to take after a huge defeat and a long layoff.

 

I agree Bummy. Rocky without doubt fought the best of his era. Hell I would rather see him fight harold johnson and floyd patterson before those big guys. but my point was, it would have been nice to see rocky take out more big young hard hitting challengers than he did.

 

great post. :good

 

Well he just got elected into the hall of fame. I guess he's entitled to it? :think

 

Bummy,


They had a convo on ESPN a few years back between Teddy and Dan Rafael. Question I was who would win between Frazier and Marciano? Teddy said marciano because he had the better two fisted power. Rafael said Frazier.


Question 2 was who would win between vitali and marciano? Rafael said are you kidding? Vitali is way to big for marciano with his smug annoying tone. Teddy responded Marciano would be bigger if he were fighting in todays world, he would not be coming into the ring today at 185lb like he did years ago.


From what i gathered, Teddy rated rocky VERY highly. Listen to him talk about rocky on "Ringside", all he talks about his how underrated rocky's defense and manuevers are.



Me, Personally, I think Teddy Atlas is one of the best minds in boxing, I have for years.

 

Cooney was probably the hardest puncher that Foreman fought :think

 

True in retrospect it would have silenced SOME of the critics Today but in reality they would find another hair to pick at. I am a big Marciano fan but was not always, it took me quite a while to recognize a lot of the internal strengths and subtle talents. At one time I just saw the power and heart.

I have to say I have absolutely no doubt that Marciano would have KO'd Valdez,Baker, and any of the other big men of the era. Joe Louis took Valdez out in 1rd in an exhibition and even though Louis was not near prime for Marciano IMO he was still better than Baker or Valdes. Also Carmine Vingo was 6"4, at the time they were novice professionals and although Vingo and Rocky had a lot to learn, Vingo was a big attraction in NY, My uncles thought he could be something special. Vingo did not have the finishing skills at that point but showed power in Knock Downs and was a big man that had power. Marciano was a crossroads fight and that stage of there careers and we know the result but Vingo was not just cannon fodder.

 

When I asked the question "are you or have you ever done anything in boxing," I didn't mean anything by it, I was just asking because some people think they know everything about the sport and never had anything to do with it. After the response Bummy Davis gave, I do have even more respect toward him.

All I have to say is that I am very respected in the boxing world. From Steve Smoger, Harold Lederman, Larry Hazzard, Bert Sugar, Herb Goldman, Gerry Cooney, Chuck Wepner, Juan LaPorte, Lou Duva, etc. Since the late 1970's, when Jersey Joe Walcott was the Boxing Commissioner of New Jersey, I have been the unofficial boxing historian of the State. Walcott, Bob Lee, Hazzard and now Aaron Davis have called me up asking me for information, and this was mostly before BoxRec. I can go on and on BUT if I did, you might write another statement like the one above.

As far as Rocky boxing Patterson, yes Floyd was just a young Light Heavyweight when Rocky fought Moore, BUT Rocky announced his retirement on April 27, 1956 and Patterson was starting to box heavyweights at that time.

All I am saying is that if Rocky stayed around a few more years, say until late 1958 or mid 1959, and fought and beat Patterson, Ingo and Liston, he would be rated right up their with Ali and Louis by most boxing people. Rocky would have been only 35 at that time.

During his career, he really didn't have the wars that Frazier, Ali and some others had. The 1st bout with Jersey Joe he was being outboxed BUT showed that he could come back and win with 1 punch. His 1st bout with Charles, he won by a decision and wasn't banged up at all. The only bout that he had it bad was the 2nd Charles bout. He was way a head at that time BUT his nose was split and again he showed that big heart of his.

When I rate someone, I don't just go by there records, if that was the case, it would be pretty easy. Rocky would be #1, BUT so would Joe Calzaghe, Harry Simon, Terry Marsh, Jim Barry, Pichit Sithbanprachan, Lopez, Ottke and others.

I do take the record into consideration, but I also look at who they fought and beat and how they beat them, I look at tapes of all the boxers, and I listen to what others have to say, like Ray Arcel, Abe J. Greene, Chuvalo, Holmes, Sugar, Goldman and many others. Many years ago Bert Sugar rated Dempsey as #1, and so did most historians up to the mid 1960's, and now he rates him #3. I asked him why the change, and his answer was, because I listen to what others have to say. By others, meaning true historians of the sport.

 

I agree BUT why would Vingo's management put him in with Rocky. He just turned 20 years old 2 years before his bout with Rocky and never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds. In his last 7 bouts before Rocky he only had one KO and that was against a boxer making his debut.

A boxing writer asked me last week if he was still a live. I found out he was and is living in Florida, so I gave the writer his address and phone number. It will be interesting to hear from him after all these years.

 

Suzie, I used to talk to Teddy but remember it was 35 years ago. I remember him telling me Marciano was a great one and Joe Louis, he said Ali was great but there are no fighters like these today.

I remember one fight I went to I forget which one but he had Dempsey and Tunney enter the ring and showed the long count highlights, it was a great experience.

Teddy was the best promoter I have ever seen in boxing. I saw fighter like Larrry Holmes, Jimmy Young in 6 rd-8 rd bouts, I have seen future world champs coming up and Teddy got you excited for the next card by putting fighters on the undercard. He did this with Buchanan vs Laguna and then put Duran on the undercard of a fight against a local Puerto Rican fighter Benny Huertas and Duran excelled with an explosive 1st rd. KO.

Duran was a big star after that.

I was not always a Marciano fan, so at the time in listened to guys like Teddy and Freddie Brown. Teddy thought Marciano would beat Frazier. I became a Marciano fan and I rate him in my top 3 now, and I think he may have a good chance to beat the other 2 on a given night just that the overall I weigh out and I add up the overall.

There are a lot of people that have a misconception about white American heavy's but this can not be applied to European rooted fighters or 2nd or 3rd generation Americans who were brought up under hasher times and circumstances and have a very large legacy in the boxing world along with the Afro-Americans. 1st or 2nd generation Americans from all part of Europe as well as South America were a tough batch of fighters. Marciano was part of that group of Americans....a different breed

 

My Uncles were from around Vingo's area and felt Vingo would win and I think his managers also thought the 6"4 Vingo would be too strong for the crude, novice 5"11 Marciano. Both men fought like Lions. Vingo also fought a lot of tough guys

In his Pro debut on the under-card of a double-header at NY Madison Square Garden Vingo KO'd 6-0 Barry Metten

5-1 Vingo had 2, four round bouts with the tough Tomy Digorgio 7-3, one in MSG and the other at Eastern Parkway, Vingo Ko'd Degiorgio in one of those fights and a UD in the other.

Vingo fought and beat UD the tough (never KO'd ) Don Mogard who had a 17-4-1 record on the undercard of Steve Belloise vs Robert Villemain fight at Madison Square Garden and Mogard went the distance with some tough fighters of the era including Rocky Marciano and Joe Dominic

13-1 Vingo won a UD over the tough 17-2 Joe Modzele on the undercard of Ezzard Charles vs Gus Lesnavitch and Ceazer Brion vs Bernie Reynalds at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx

Yes Vingo was a novice but at that stage of his career so was Marciano but you do not get to fight on the undercards of places like Madison Square Garden and Yankee stadium in those days unless you were perceived as a major talent

Vingo at that stage of his career was put in tough, these were no build up opponents Vingo had and he was a 6"4 Heavyweight who could WHACK


Remember Marciano was brought in to lose to Vingo in MSG, Vingo was the New Yorker, Rocky was the opponent.

My uncles all were rooting for Vingo and felt Vingo would be a Champ if handled correctly but they all said they saw something great in Marciano that night and became fans of Rocky, even though the New England fighter beat there homeboy

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd8u9_Y-XCM[/ame]
I uploaded this to youtube a couple years ago.


Marciano vs Vingo 1949 Homemade video