Joe Frazier vs. Rocky Marciano

Bummy,

I keep Forgetting. Vingo was a big guy huh? 6'4 195lb? Do you think he would have filled out to a solid 220lb by age 25? He might have been one of the best sluggers in the division in the 1950s had he not been ruined by Marciano. Did your uncles think Vingo had the potential to crack the top 10 in the future?

What did your uncles think of Lastarza? Did they consider him the best defensive boxer in the division?

 

I agree with several things you brought BUT disagree on some others.

A friend of mine fought on the under card of Patterson Ingo bout, and he really didn't have much talent.

Vingo did beat 6-0 Barney Metten in his 1st pro bout but if you add up all the wins Barney's opponents had at that time it adds up to 6, and none of them had a win/loss record over .500.

Tomy Digorgio was 7-3, but if you add up all the wins of the opponents he beat, it would add up to 2 the 1st time they fought.

Don Mogard might have been his best opponent up until he fought Rocky, BUT in his last 20 bouts of his career, he went 3-2-15.

Matt Daniels also fought on the undercard at Yankee Stadium the same time Vingo did and he had a record of 4-6 at the time and ended up with a career record of 6-16. There a lot of boxers that fought on the undercard of such events that had very little talent, BUT they were popular. Vingo had some talent, maybe he would have been a contender one day.

When Rocky fought him, Rocky had a record of 24-0 with 22 KO's. He also fought in 11 scheduled 10 rounders at that time, to none for Vingo.

I honestly feel that Vingo was a good prospect, BUT I still can not believe they put him in with Rocky when he just turned 20 years old 2 days before.

 

Yes Vingo could have filled out to 225lbs without looking fat or out of condition. Remember there are a lot of Weights involved with heavyweight training in recent times not to mention additional supplements. Mike Tyson fought in the 200 and under limit in the amateurs but gained a quick 15-20 lbs of muscle on his 5"10 frame when he turned pro.

My uncles loved Lastarza and thought he had it all as a boxer and Roland had some power in his mitts as well. They were all rooting for Roland in both fights vs Marciano because Roland was NY (Bronx) Yankees vs Boston, Ha Ha, but even though they were rooting for Roland, all my Uncles said Marciano clearly won fight 1. My uncle said it was clear Rocky landed the harder shots and the knock down of Lastarza was big. In the Rematch Lasarza was 53-3 and had beaten some big Heavy's but also beat every man that beat him except Marciano. There was no question about the result of that fight and my uncles gave in to Brockton and Marciano but Lastarza had a lot of talent.

Another of the fighter that were underrated at the time was Harry Matthews, who was smaller but on a great streak going into the Marciano bout.

 

I agree for the most part. When LaStarza fought Rocky the 2nd trime, he lost and won against 14-8-2 Rocky Jones and won a close decision against 40-5 Rex Layne.

Here's what LaStarza had to say about Rocky.

On fighting Rocky Marciano: "I won the first fight. Everyone thought I won the first fight except the referee. One judge scored it for me, the ref and the other judge gave it to Marciano. All the newspaper guys gave me the decision.

"The second fight, ruined me. It was easy at first. Then in maybe the sixth round I blocked a punch with my left arm and my left was gone. I blocked one of his right hands and that was it. I hurt that arm in training and when I blocked that punch I damaged blood vessels in my arm. I stood there and took a beating until the 11th. "If I had one word to describe Rocky it would be relentless. I would throw a right hand, he would throw a right hand. But the difference was Rocky would throw 10. He didn't hit me the hardest, but he hit me the most often. Don't get me wrong, Rocky was a great fighter. He was tough and he never stopped throwing punches."

 

Vingo was a favorite in NY and my uncles felt he would beat the 5"11 Marciano as well as others

As far as the difference between Matt Daniels and Vingo....Vingo was not the opponent he was the young star attraction. They matched him tough against guys that were known as exciting 6 rd fights that came to win and in his 1st pro fight a guy 6-0 is pretty good match-up

I see you took the time to look at records to see who had a winning record but you happened to mention your man George Foreman before, well lets see if you took the time to check the % of his opponent

In Georges 36th fight he fought Terry Sorrells a fighter with a 4-16 record

In Foreman's 34th fight he fought 11-80-1 Leroy Cadwell

In Foreman's 36th fight he fought 15-5 Ted Gullick

In Foremans 33rd fight he fought 4-20-1 Clarence Boone

In his 28th fight he fought 1-2-0 Vic Scott

In Foremans 32nd pro fight he fought 1-14-1 Joe Murphy Goodwin

In GF's 26th fight he fought 14-23-2 Stamford Harris

In GF's 31st fight he fought 20-40-0 Ollie Wilson

In his 35th fight he fought 48-15-13 Miguel Paez

You were the one who mentioned Foreman

But lets take Larry Holmes in his 23rd fight he fought 5-2 Horace Robinson

In Holmes 21st fight he fought 15-12-1 Fred Askew

In Holmes 17th fight he fought 9-9-1 Leon Shaw


I know you are trying hard to discredit the opponents of Vingo which I feel was an excellent group of opponents for a young fighter, Yet you went out of your way to talk of Foreman but made no mention of his Padded record.

I know you do a lot of charity work for boxing and commend you for that but I sense you suffer from selective hair-picking when it comes to boxing facts

 

Roland was gallant and tough, he also avenged a SD loss to 38-2 6"3 Dan Bucceroni, who had beaten Rocky Jones 2x, Hein Ten Hoff, Freddie Beshore,Jimmy Slade, Tommy Harrison, Danny Nardico, James Parker, Sonny Parisi

As far as what Roland said, his claim to fame was the 1st fight to Marciano being close and it was, but my uncles where from around the area of Lastarza and were rooting for Roland vs Marciano but they all told me Roland had heart, fought gamely but Marciano landed the heavier punches and Roland hit the canvas and was hurt, they all felt Marciano won the fight and they were rooting for Roland. Till the day they died they said Roland may have been champ had it not been for Marciano but it could be the NY talking.

 

I never said they didn't fight some soft opponents, so I agree with you on that. I was talking about Vingo's record. Your the one that stated that he beat some good fighters, I disagree. Some of the records look good, but Lamar Clark's record looked good too.

When I look into someone record, I look at the opponents they fought and beat and then I also look into their records as well.

I agree Foreman record was padded, BUT in his 3rd Pro bout he fought Sylvester Dullaire, who was 6-1 and the total wins for his opponents was 35, not 2 or 6. In Foreman's 4th Pro bout he fought Chuck Wepner, and he stopped almost everyone, unlike Vingo.

This is why I don't like to put out my opinions, if I don't agree I get things like this. I never say that about you or anyone else, I just voice my opinion, so please try to do the same.

All I have to say is that when I say something, my name is their for everyone to see. I try to be fair and honest, maybe because I am also a Deacon in my church for almost 25 years too.

Finally, Thanks for the nice words you stated about me on my charity work and you really don't know most of the work I do on this either, BUT that's another subject.

 

The knockdown didn't really count that much in the scoring of rounds, BUT did in the end when one of the judges had it 5-5. Marciano was penalized the eighth round due to a low blow, so that made it even.

The scores were 5-4, 4-5 and 5-5 (9-6) in favor of Rocky. I knew several people that saw that bout too, and it depends on who your talking to, on who won. If I polled all of them. I would have to say it came out pretty even. A very good friend of mine, who has passed away, said thought Roland won 6-4, BUT who knows unless you saw the bout yourself.

 

I have Rocky's Ringside on my computer and I don't remember Teddy ever talking about Rocky's defense. What he talks about is underrated ring IQ and that he did subtle things. For example, he knew Moore was a great fighter but a little on the older side. He knew that he was a defensive fighter, so he pitched him many punches in that fight. He didn't do these things on accident, he did these things on purpose.

I remember him saying something to that effect. But yes, Teddy seemed high on Rocky. Although Teddy isn't ridiculed as the Nostradamus ******ed brother. The guy who always gets the predictions wrong. Well, it's exaggerated at times. But I feel Teddy is right on this one.

 

Here's Teddy Atlas all-time top 10 in all weight classes:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Benny Leonard
5. Sam Langford
6. Harry Greb
7. Mickey Walker
8. Roberto Duran
9. Gene Tunney
10. Carlos Monzon
10a. Joe Louis [FONT=&quot]

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Would have been a brutal war for sure.

I can only favour Joe in one department and thats his finesse, he was much more polished, which I think would end up giving him the nod.

 

Vingos pro debut was vs a 6-0 fighter, you stated that his opponents opponents did not have winning records, Lets check out the few fighters George Foremans opponents beat its not very good

everyone is entitled to there opinion, I question my hardness with certain fighters and wonder if I am biased. Certain things bother me but I can appreciate a fighter like Joe Louis who always fought the best for the most part, Marciano and Ali fall into this section and I am hard on Holmes and Dempsey for not doing this, although in a lot of cases may have not been there fault. Thats what this board is for to debate

By the way a Deacon is a Blessed position...God Bless:good

 

LarSarza is wrong about that first fight though, he said "ALL the newspapers", but if you look into it, its relly about half the papers were on his side, the other half on Marciano's side, give or take a few.

 

Pete,

maybe not 'defense' specificully, but definetely about the underrated ring science marciano used.

 

Bummy,

You have made some great posts in this thread. Do you think Vingo had the potential to have been one of most dangerous HW contenders in the division? it seems to me the man had the potential size 6'4 maybe 225lb by age 25, the punch, and the toughness to make it pretty far. He could have been one of the divisions biggest contenders. I would have loved to see Vingo battle it out with Valdes, Satterfield, Baker in slugfests in the mid 50s.