From what I have heard of Vingo, he had power, heart and size and Vingo was a well built 6"4 so with the natural training and muscle gain I would say he could hold 225 and still be very fit Unfortunately Vingo ran into Rocky Marciano, who his people thought he could beat. Marciano was short 5"11, short arms and looked awkward but like so many other Marciano opponents found out was the man was very smart, had great teaching and improved in every fight making the better use use of his short-comings. Vingo was thought very highly of look at the events he fought in and there may have been a total of 6 bouts on the cards and Vingo was in places like Yankee Stadium and MSG My Uncles told me he had a warriors heart and that may have been his undoing against Marciano but he had a reputation in NY and he fought some good fighters in his 17 bouts. Don Mogard was a tough SOB Carmine Vingo could have been a tragic case like Luther McCarthy but thank God he recovered never to fight again. We will never know how good he could have been but at that stage of his career he fought his heart vs Rocky Marciano and that is saying volumes.
Here's a few things I researched a couple of years ago. Here are the average record's of the opponents of Rocky and Joe: Marciano - W 29.7-L 10.16-D 1.775 = 73.48188 winning percentage Frazier --- W 25.4-L 05.35-D 0.973 = 81.61702 winning percentage Rocky faced 13 different opponents 16 times in his 49 bouts that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another - 32.653% Joe faced 13 different opponents 19 times in his 37 bouts that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another - 51.35135% These are some of the other things I go by when I rate them.
Henry, I don't think that is a proper way of doing it. Surely Frazier having far more experience as an amatuer boxer allows him to rush into the pros and fight at a world class level much sooner. Marciano when he entered the pros hardly had any amatuer experience. He desperatley needed all of those tomato cans from providence to give him much needed experience. That is why your stat above is very misleading
Rocky wasn't a bad amateur either. He actually boxed in the AAU Olympic tryouts but got injured and couldn't go on. He also fought in the Golden Gloves all East Championships. One of his 4 losses was a very close decision to one of the best amateur heavyweights in Coley Wallace. Frazier actually lost in the New Jersey Gold Gloves in 1964, and then lost 2 more times to Buster Mathis in the Olympic Trials. Mathis hurt his hand and Frazier took his place. The people that saw him box in New Jersey weren't very impressed at that time. The last time Frazier fought anyone that had a win/loss record under .500 was when he beat George Johnson in his 16th bout. Rocky fought 8-8 Keene Simmons in his 32nd bout and followed that by 3-13 Harold Mitchell, 13-15 Art Henri and 11-14 Willis Applegate. So he was still boxing these tomato cans well into his career, BUT to be fair, Foreman was too.
Well if you take Foreman record and deduct about 30 winning fights with guys with a 20%win to 80% loss record that would change Frazier's % record also Joes final record was 32-4-1 so 5 of those Frazier did not win, Foreman was 2 of them so the statistics are useless. If we dissect Foreman's record you will see much padding and against guys the I mention a few posts ago
I already stated that Foreman's record was padded, and I already went over Eddie Ros's padded record as well. You can also say that about a lot of other fighters as well, but where comparing Rocky with Frazier. I also stated this: The last time Frazier fought anyone that had a win/loss record under .500 was when he beat George Johnson in his 16th bout. Rocky fought 8-8 Keene Simmons in his 32nd bout and followed that by 3-13 Harold Mitchell, 13-15 Art Henri and 11-14 Willis Applegate. So he was still boxing these tomato cans well into his career, BUT to be fair, Foreman was too. Just for the record, Ali only fought 1 fighter that had a losing record and that was when the fighter that he was suppose to box didn't show up and they put in a sub.
Rocky KO'd Keene Simmons in 8, but Simmons went 10 rds with Cleveland Big Cat Williams and NINO Valdes and Roland Lastarza a year later, Simmons was no bum and was in deep in every fight, records can be decieving. Appelgate was in the ring with Archie Mcbride, Marty Marshall and Jimmy Bivins, Billy Gilliam and Omelio Agramonte, Red was also the 2nd man to beat 42-2 Billy Fox after Gus Lesnevitch all around the same time so Red had losses but was in with top contender and going the distance with them. These guys were no Terry Daniels or Ron Standers Art Henry was another fighter who was fighting the likes of Archie Moore, Joe Baski and Billy Gilliam and Art just scored a big win over Ted Lowrey Dropping the tough Lowry for a nine count. Art was an opponent type but fought Cleveland Williams a year later. In Fraziers 18th fight he fought light heavyweight Marion Connor who never fought heavyweight before and was beaten by Hal Carroll, Jimmy Dupree (KO in 1) and Hershall Jacobs, Conner only won 4 of his next 20 fights but ended up as a middleweight. The 5"9 George Scrap iron Johnson actually did well against Frazier, who had trouble with short fighters. Quarry had KO'd Johnson in 2 rds and Johnson had been stopped 8 times before Frazier and 5 times after. George Johnson went the distance with Joe Frazier. Manuel Ramos was 21-6-2 when he fought Frazier, He rocked Joe before getting ko'd but Ramos went on to win only 4 of his next 29 bouts. Terry Daniels was KO'd in 4 rds by Jack O'Halloran just 2 fight before fighting Frazier for the title his record was 28-4-1 but deceptive records can be. Daniels went on to win 6 of his next 32 fights Ron Stander lost to 8-11-1 Rico Brooks just 2 fights before fighting Joe Frazier for the title, his record was 23-1-1 but Stander went on to win 12 of his next 33 fights
Marciano was an equally slow starter and, while Marciano had comparable punching power to Foreman, their styles were completely different. A better question would be," How would Marciano avoid getting clubbed into submission by left hooks given his tendency to throw comparatively sloppy right hands.
I know Keene Simmons, as he was from Bayonne and when I was the MC for the unveiling of the Marciano Stamp he was their. He claimed that he actually hurt Rocky and even knocked him down, BUT I never found anything to support that. He finished his career with a 9-23 record and Applegate wasn't much better. I can pick a part most of Rocky's opponents too, BUT I guess we will never convince the other that one is better then the other. I like debating, as long as we both have respect for each others opinion, and I enjoyed going back and forth with you and others.
I think had Simmons knock Marciano down, it would have made the news SOME WERE. So far as it stands, Walcott was the first to drop Marciano. Hurt ok, maybe, but I stop on the knockdown.
I read in the newspapers of the day that Simmons had Marciano hurt in their fight. He was later a sparring partner for Rocky, so the knockdown could have occurred during a sparring session. His skills have been ridiculed here but apparently he wasn't all that bad to give Marciano a tough fight.
Keene Simmons has to be the worst fighter I have ever seen on film He was Terrible! John Holman looks god awful too McGrain, where are you!
Very good and that was my thoughts too. I was told this by Keene himself, plus several boxing people that were there that day, BUT it could have been in sparring like you said. If it was in an actually bout, I have to agree with others that this would have come out a long time ago.