Joe Frazier vs. Rocky Marciano

It might have been closer then the scorecards but he still lost to Layne and Charles in consecutive bouts. I heard he got the shot because he was popular and they wanted to give him 1 last big payday. I guess if that is the truth, he fooled them all.

 

Hey Pete I know you are aware of this fact but when we look at fights like Matthews and Moore and Charles and lastarza, you can see Marciano score Knock outs and knockdowns with the left hook and solid clean power shots. I think if Marciano's hook was not overshadowed by his Powerfull right he would still be known as a puncher with the hook. With Frazier I would have to say he had the hook only and his right hand was good for window dressing, much like Cooney...I would reluctantly have to say they were both Cooney and Frazier one-handed punchers, not one handed fighters

 

I am sure we would HH, If I told my friends I post on here they would say I am wasting my times as well but I enjoy it and sometimes I learn something.

A lot of the people on here have expert opinions when it comes to certain areas of expertise. A lot of the young guys really impress me with the films and the time they devote to this sport. They remind me of when I was a teen in the 70's and I used to go to all the fights and gyms in MSG. I think a lot of them on ESB are well versed and although not media stars have better opinions of the so-called experts. I remember Randy Flash Gordon a pretty young guy we used and used to stay outside the felt forum and MSG with a lot of the old writers, trainers, and fighter and I listened and learned.

Flash knew boxing and every angle of it and that may have been his downfall because I think he was threatened for speaking true.

I was once at a fight with my girlfriend and was siting ringside at a fight in MSG, Randy was up in the rafters but he had a pair of binoculars and told me he saw me and where I was sitting. he did an inventory of the garden.

Another time I wrote to boxing world weekly(British weekly) and they printed it but messed up my last name to a Chinese name and Randy came over to me and said I read your letter to Boxing World, I said how did you know it was me. He knew because he knew my opinions and I was a fan of a few fighters from Britain at the time but it told me he read it from the 1st page till the last.

I have no problem with you Henry nor any other poster and appreciate your opinion but just because you are a presence at a lot of fights and active in the sport I do not put more value in your opinion or mine than other posters on ESB, many of them who I respect highly in there particular area of expertise and have so many so-called experts and if it were not for the pomp and circumstance of the media would only be a glorified fan. I think a lot of the informal experts on ESB can detect a fraudulent media star.

When I hear someone say something out of the normal range about Joe Louis, Harry Greb, Roberto Duran, Ali, Marciano, Hagler,Dempsey,Langford,Pep,SRR,Armstrong,Tunney, and many of the other fighters I studied in my life of boxing, I have to disagree because I feel strongly about certain fighter and that is my area

A friend of mine is recently very close to the Marciano family, the brothers and he wanted me to meet with them recently in NYC but I had other plans i could not break. I will be looking forward to meeting them the next time they get together. I became a huge fan of Marciano but it took me years to recognize how great of a fighter he was, but again that is only my humble opinion but I will express my appreciation of Marciano to them because it is genuine and sincere.

 

I agree 99%

We do have many people on this site that know about the sport BUT I still like to talk to the old-timers that were actually their. When people talk about Dempsey, most people now a days don't rate him high at all. I wish we had films of him when he was at his best. The only one we have is against Willard. When I use to talk to Ray Arcel, Abe J. Greene and many others, who actually saw him, they say that he was the Greatest.

Too many people go by the records, BoxRec and they don't hear what others have to say. As far as Rocky goes, he was the best of his era, he beat everyone that he ever fought, and that is all anyone can expect.

Here around New Jersey, when someone wants to know something about boxing, they contact me. Even if you call the Governors office, they will give you the number of the Boxing Commissioners office, who will give you my number.

For years several people on the International Boxing Hall of Fame Committee would call me up and ask me who would I pick. Now that I am on that committee (modern) and the old-timers Committee, I just give them information that will make it easier for them.

It's hard enough trying to pick a winner of boxers in the same era, never mind picking them in different ones. Just recently I picked Mayweather to win and I stated that at a big dinner just days before the bout, BUT I really wasn't 100% sure, I never am. After the 2nd round, I thought I made a big mistake BUT in the end I looked pretty good. This doesn't always happen, sometimes you win and other times you lose.

 

I agree. Honestly I was fortunate with a few picks that I have had regarding certain fighters but there are so many intangables in the sport of boxing its very hard. There are a lot of fights that I am clueless.

Like Floyd vs Pac, I think Floyd is the fast guy, a great defensive fighter but when I think of that 2nd rd vs Shane, I think of the speed and the power of Pac and I could see a different fight but yet when I go back to Pac/Maquez, I can see the other side of the senario...I think the will-power and imposing it has a lot to do with it and the tide of events in a fight make a difference. The mind and control of a fighter has a lot to do with it and how they overcome adversity. I must say Floyd adjusted well after the 2nd and Shane did not. Pac may be a horse of a different color but again I AM NOT READY TO PICK and may not be until I absorb it all and nearing the battle

 

Bottom line ,Frazier has one advantage over Marciano, hand speed.
Marciano has two -fisted power.
Better chin.
Better one shot power.

 

Hand speed is huge in this sort of match up ... so is a solid 18 ponds of mscle and strength ... Frazier ws not ripped like Rocky but at 204 he was rock solid and freakishly strong. He also showed that his stamina was proven even when 215 plus guys like Ali and Mathis were hanging all over him round after round ...

Final catagory , again mentioned is quality of opposition, big for Frazier ...

 

Frazier doesn't have two-fisted power but him being a one-handed fighter is a bit over-stated in my opinion. He went to the body with both hands and used the right uppercut to great effect in close, and often used a combination of a right to the body and a right to the head. The Ali fights aren't the best example because Ali was most vulnerable to Frazier's best punch, the left hook, so he mainly used his left. If Marciano had an elusive opponent who was vulnerable to a right hand in front of him, you'd better be sure that he would be throwing the "Suzie Q" a lot.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6LEd0UKAII[/ame]

 

I agree. Moore after the fight said "Man, all his punches hurt" in a response to how his "Suzie Q felt." Rocky definitely has the two-fisted power edge here. Frazier best weapon was his left hook. That was his finish shot.

My point was to the other poster is that event though an older Frazier developed his right hand a little better, would we really take a 74-76 Frazier against a prime Marciano? Naturally, we would choose the best version of Frazier against Marciano. That's all I was saying.

His right was good, mostly as a setup shot to the body. I think it can get over-stated at times. I won't call him one-handed, but his left was much more dominant no doubt. Rarely did he finish a fighter with his right to the head. And the uppercut... come on. That's a punch Frazier really rarely utilized.

 

It's a very intriguing matchup. Style wise, does this fight suit or favor on man over the other? Or is Frazier so skilled that it's anyone's fight really.

One thing I find interesting is everyone talks about Rocky cutting. Really... besides the freak nose incident caused by an elbow he was never in danger of a stoppage. He's not Chuck Wepner or Henry Cooper in this category. What I find funny, though, is that hardly anyone mentions Frazier's swelling. Eddie Futch talked about how Frazier had a tendency to swell up quickly. In a 15 round slug-fest... this has as much bearing. If Frazier has his good eye swollen he's done. Marciano can fight with a cut... he's done it before.

 

There were quite a few instances previous to Marciano being champion when he was cut quite badly. He suffered cuts against Keene Simmons and Johnny Shkor. He wasn't a bleeder like Wepner but Frazier's sharp left hooks could very well open a cut. He did break Chuvalo's eye orbit after all and had Quarry bleeding all over the place.

 

Well, I have to disagree with you here. He used the uppercut quite frequently in close.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvR7PeRuCzU[/ame]

1:40

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7RjPJbvMiI[/ame]

1:40

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOjcDBH6wb8[/ame]

Frazier goes to town on Stander with uppercuts. 2:45 is particularly brutal.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS7MaE99GBs[/ame]

0:20 and onwards

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-Hui9bIRb4[/ame]

1:30

Frazier really worked over Quarry with both hands here:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdDG7e-pqDQ[/ame]

 

Marciano's left was better then Frazier's right imo.
I can remember more noticable knock downs with his left hand, then Frazier with his right hand.
But they can both hit certainly.

 

Marciano's speed is highly underarted and I can see why only in certain fights did he flurry and he was bloking using his elbows and throwing weird angled punches but when Marciano executed a punch it got there quick and with sudden impact and beat some pretty quick and nimble guys to the punch.

Marciano was not a huh huh huh guy nor was there any window dressing on his punches but he was far from slow in an exchange look at Lastarza, Walcott, Moore and Charles and even Matthews. There is a little clip of Vingo and a heated exchange on you-tube but you will see some subtle defensive moves and a variety of odd-angled power punches from Rocky