Joe Frazier vs. Rocky Marciano

For an "overrated" fighter he certainly accomplished a great deal. He beat Walcott and Charles(BEFORE marciano did), Turkey Thompson, Bob Satterfield, Cesar Brion, Bob Dunlap, Joe Kahut. The guy was thrown to the wolves and came out on top.


When I watch Layne on film I see him as a very tough rugged brawler, powerful right hand, an underrated left jab which is one of his beat weapons, solid workrate, good beard...did i mention tough? Layne did pretty much have non existent defense which was his downfall, but he was able to cover it up in many of his fights because of his durabiity, workrate, and punching power.

Sure. But Layne wasn't non existent against punchers. Layne outslugged Bob Satterfield, taking his best stuff along the way. Something 6'3 200lb + sluggers C Williams, Bob Baker, J Holman, and Nino Valdes could not do against Satterfield.

 

Great A,

I meant stander and Bonavena.

 

I say overrated because he was supposed to be the next champ but was derailed by Marciano which was basically the end of his prime. He was a good fighter but the Charles and Walcott wins flatter him. In the two filmed Charles bouts that I've seen, Charles handles him fairly well and floors him several times. The Layne win was not said to be the best decision.

Layne was a tough guy but the Marciano/Frazier type seem to be a bad match-up for him. Layne vs Satterfield came down to who had the better chin, and it was Layne in the end. Brion, who had a solid chin, arguably deserved the decision against Layne.

 

Good Points above GreatA.

 

I have read stories like the one on Layne many times. Yes, he had a few good bouts, I would say that Walcott was his best, along with Charles. He fought back to back draws against fighters that had a record of 16-7 then beat Walcott. Jersey Joe might have took him lightly BUT if he did, that was his fault.

Just look at his overall record against the top contenders.

 

Walcott said he hurt his right hand in the third round. It may have affected him. He was also a bit over his best fighting weight at 200 lbs.

Layne was an awkward opponent though. He threw a lot of punches from all angles and could be a head ache for anyone who couldn't hurt him.

This was a competitive fight until the very end:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwTxXgOcvXc[/ame]


Marciano got off to a slow start but he eventually took over:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5chxdyedNw[/ame]

 

Frazier KO'ed every fighter he ever fought that weighed less then 205 pounds. Bob Foster was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights of all time and we all know what Joe did to him, so IMO he would do the same to Matthews. Matthews only weighed 179.

 

I did the count with near HD footage. Looping punches... yeah some? Like I said I didn't count them all. If it's a shot upward with the palm of his glove facing toward him then it's most likely an uppercut. Granted, a lot are uppercut-hooks. But I could have used the 15th round which was 100+ punches from Rocky. What do you classify these punches as?

 

Half of the Charles fight isn't available. I would bet that Marciano threw more punches than Frazier ever had in that fight. Either way, he throw over 100+ in round 15th. How many do you think he threw in half the fight? If at least 2 rounds you remember counting had 100+ thrown punches?

 

Marciano wins this time.

 

That's your opinion, but IMO it would be the other way around.

I counted all the punches that Rocky threw during his career that is available on tape. The most active round I have on him is the 15th round of the 1st Charles bout, when he threw just over 100 punches. Rocky just let it all hang out, but he did miss an awful lot.

 

Nat Fleischer called him the next Dempsey and Layne was 34-1-1 and had beaten every man that put a blemish on his unbeaten record and he KO'd the guy that beat him and drew with him. I think the punch Marciano hit him with ruined him, much like the 2 punch KO of big John Tate by Weaver.

Layne was a favorite to beat Marciano

 

I agree!

Layne was the favorite because up to that time he fought and beat the better competition. Rocky's only fight against a contender up to that time was against LaStarza. I also agree that Layne was a different fighter after he fought Rocky, but he did beat Charles in 1952.

 

Matthews actually had more success at heavyweight than Foster did and was ko'd only by Marciano in a 20 year career. His other two stoppages were on injuries.

It might be a very controversial view, but I think beating Matthews at heavy is more impressive than beating a Foster who never did much of anything at heavyweight.


*on Frazier---Most of Frazier's better opponents weighed over 200 lbs, though, so this could be misleading. Machen, Jones, and Billy Daniels were past it or well past it. Foster was invincible against the lightheavies of his era, not that sterling a group, but always looked vulnerable at heavy. Only Quarry was still a first class under 200 lb fighter.

**Looking at the Boxing Register--only Quarry of Frazier's under 200 lb opponents was a rated heavyweight when Joe fought him.

 

It is not I that said Frazier had trouble with short guys but his corner after the Daniels fight. I noted that Joe had trouble stopping the much stopped George"Scrap Iron "Johnson who was 5"9" so his corner may know something but that was not my observation, it was on a video posted earlier in this post by I think Great A


Well an older Floyd Patterson beat Ellis (most felt) he drew with Quarry and both fights were close and he beat Bonavena at 37 yrs old and that was because of experience but it was a clear cut decision, Floyd was not known for durability vs Punchers. Now would Charles Walcott and Moore of the 1953-1955 time frame have any troubles with that group. I think not

Foreman was big but it was the fact that he hit Joe 1st and kept him hurt in those 2 rds. George was a powerful puncher but Clancy was right he was not a crisp puncher, Frazier and Lyle got off the floor multiple times but that is not the argument, Frazier got hurt vs Ramos, he said Daniels hurt him and Terry was not a top 10 fighter he was stopped 2 fights before by Jack O"Halloran(enough said). Foster stunned him but Foster was a loser to every heavy he fought.

Frazier got stunned in many fights and the guys were not known as punchers. Ali stunned and staggered Frazier in fight 2 and we know Ali was never a puncher.

I think if we look at the fights that Frazier was shook in the opponents can not really be defined as punchers. Even Bonavena, a strong bull of a man was not an explosive puncher.

I think the element Foreman brought into the ring was that he could punch, despite his size, with out power, Frazier walks through him.

Marciano brings that 2-fisted power into a fight with Frazier and despite his heart and stamina, I think the Marciano power is the KEY to breaking Joe at the seems, It is the power that stops his momentum and it is Rocky's power and awkwardness that negates Frazier's strengths. Try as he might it is the Power of Marciano that is the kryptonite that beats Joe.

If you watch Marciano's fights his speed is underrated. He had the ability to break a fighters rhythm and beat them to the punch with an off-angle-short-6-inch chop and he found an opening vs some crafty ring men.