Anyone else getting sick of these tweens?

I know, it really pisse's me off aswell,

welcome to ESB :good

 

Nobody is claiming Roy Jones is better than Robinson, i've not seen this. However saying that Jones may beat him in a MW is in no way ridiculous.

Nobdoy has said Duran is outside the top 30, i've never seen this. He is almost always top 5 on p4p lists, and considered close to unbeatable h2h from LW to MW. Don't even try and make out he's being underrated on the classic forum.

 

tonyteb saying that Jones would beat everyone that Robinson fought with ease,

and I think Robinson beats Jones at middleweight without at doubt.

 

It's something you just have to deal with it. It's natural to question a fighter who is regarded as unquestionably the best despite having fought 50-60 years ago, when in most other sports the athletes have gotten better, and Duran lost to the other members of the so-called Fab 4.

It's up to the Classic forum members to set these people straight, redundant as it may get over time.

Boxing is a sport which has not peaked in interest, it has actually steadily gone downhill and the athletes that step into the sport aren't necessarily top of the class, not that boxing is all about athleticism either. Mentality counts for a lot, and cliche as it may sound people did have it tougher in the old days. Many of the old techniques have all but disappered, not because they aren't useful, but because the trainers today don't teach them.

It would be logical to expect that a sport which has decreased in popularity and which doesn't have as many competitors as in the past would in fact "devolve" in some way, or atleast stay relatively the same with the added improvement in nutrition and conditioning.

As for Duran, many see him as a fighter who competed with the other members of the Fab 4 on even terms, forgetting that he had long dominated the lightweight division, before stepping up to beat Ray Leonard, arguably a top 3 all-time welterweight. Until Duran beat Leonard, it was almost unheard of for a lightweight to step up into the welterweight division and beat the champion, who also happened to be one of the greatest fighters of all time. Add to that some miracle comebacks at 154 and 160 when the man was well past his prime and all but counted out by the public and you have one of the true all-time greats in Duran.

 

i echo sugarsean, welcome to the forum

i actually welcome it because i'm on that fence myself. I started out as a fan of the modern era and have grown a steady appreciation for the legends of the past.

however, questioning whether or not the jones beats robinson, etc. keeps us from being blindly loyal to old timers and ignoring the fact that some fighters today MAY even be greater

it's not likely we'll see a fighter better than greb, but it's possible and by questioning it we'll be more able to look at fighters objectively

but **** anyone putting duran outside the top 15, they don't know **** about ****

 

I pop on everyday and read some of the stupid ****. Lately everybody is a bum. Pavlik, mosley, pacman, PBF, etc.. i dont even bothing reading half the **** anymore. People calling Pro boxers Bums. #1 they have nore money then you #2 they dont care what u think lol

 

oh absolutly, I love to debate Hd 2 Hd match ups, but guys like tonyteb don't discuss, they troll,

I hate trolls :fire

 

haha, dude i love popping into that p4p thread he did just to see you tear into him. you ****ing hate that guy

 

I don't hate him, just his opinions on Robinson and the fighters he fought.

he said that Gavilan, LaMotta and Turpin had no skills, that their just punching bags :-(

 

I actuallythink that a lot of people totaly underestimate just how many good boxers their have been in history. Duran is a great and probably is top 15,but it isnt as guaranteed as you think.

If you think about someone like Sugar Ray Robinson, definitely an all time great and arguably the greatest of all. Yet compare his career to someone very few people have even heard of like Tommy Ryan. Ryan pretty much did exactly what Robinson did in his own time. Dominated welterweight for the same length of time. Dominated middleweight the same length of time. Yet i dont think i have ever seen him in a top 15 list on ESB. Is it discraceful to leave him out?

Fitz, Langford and Greb's dominance speaks for itself. What Armstrong did is arguably incomparable. What about greats like Benny Leonard, Willie Pep and plenty of others. The great Jack McAuliffe never lost a fight ever, and held the world lightweight title for 7 years, does he not deserve to be considered in the same breath some of these guys? Virtually No one was as dominant for as long as Joe Louis was, why should Duran be automatically rated over him. Monzon is among many who were untouchable at their best weights. Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvin Hagler were dominant in their own divisons, in fact, both beat Duran, do they not deserve possible ranking over Duran. Before long we are starting to get close to 15, even without including popular choices like Moore, Tunney, Charles.

Now dont get me wrong, Duran may have been top 15, but he also may not have been.

 

good post:good and it makes me think: the way we feel about the 50s, people in the 50s probably felt about the 20s. and people in the 20s probably felt that same way about daniel mendoza, james figg and the late 1800s fighters (i'm not sure, we should ask burt what it was like before plumbing and electricity)

every generation has its legends and the guys before that can get lost in the shuffle

 

Just not true. Most people have him Top10, nit Top5 and most people take the great fighters from ww to mw above him h2h. You just don´t get it when people wind you up for your hatred about him.

Good post!

Also a good one.

I had Ryan Top15 p4p, Top3 with Robinson and Armstrong at ww and Top10 at mw. Great fighter.

As good as some of your examples are I don´t think McAuliffe, Monzon, Tunney, Leonard or Hagler have good arguments to rank above him. Duran is a lock for Top15, I had him 10 the last time, I don´t think there are many arguments against that.

 

Alright mate.

Some (myself included) think Jones could trouble Robinson at middleweight in a h2h fight but only an idiot would rank him anywere near him on a p4p level and I don't think I've seen anyone (except for powerpuncher maybe and he's actually very knowledgable) rank Jones above him.

As for Duran most here rate him very,very highly but why shouldn't his (and every fighter for that matter) record and standing be scrutinised and debated instead of just taking his greatness for granted with no questions asked.

Discussing boxing is what we are all here for and just deifying certain fighters and stifling any debate and analysis about them defeats the purpose of this forum and would make this site a very boring place to be.

As it stands ESB Classic is THE BEST boxing forum on the net because of the quality of posters and debate that goes on here (for example Stonehands and El Bujia's recent discussion on Roy Jones and Charley Burley) and I hope it always stays this way.

By the way welcome on board:good

 

The biggest problem with these sites is the fact that 70% get their boxing from youtube and boxrec. Youtube sucks for viewing fights in realtime and without the background of the prefight, the circumstances etc. it's hard to make a real opinion. They watch a rd. or two, check boxrec and are a sudden expert. I went to fights in the philly and atlantic city area all thru the 70's and early 80's and saw a lot of great fighters and great fights, but the youtube watchers know more than me. For ANYONE to say the fighters pre 1930 were not talented and like MMA fighyters is assinine. The films of the time are not in real time and on youtube they are even worse. And any moron that thinks Carlos Monzon sucks has to wake up in the morning and ride a little yellow bus to school. A lot of the posts on here look like they should be in the idiot forum. A little knowledge for these cats make them the Guniness book on boxing. Yeah, Ray Arcel needs to learn from Buddy McGirt and Nazeem Richardson. You would be laughed out of the gym in the 80's for saying **** like that and probably still would today. On "South Park", Cartman complains about the college-know-it-all *******. A lot of you are youtube-know-it-all assholes and don't even know it. Have a nice day co#$$^&kers!:smoke