Why no Archie Moore

Fleischer didn't rate too many contemporary fighters highly. He probably had slight bias for the fighters he saw in his youth.

I certainly think that Archie Moore is one of the top 5 greatest light heavyweights, arguably the best.

Tribute:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ATaP2TyF9U[/ame]

 

Cause Fleischer smoked crack in his later days. That is the only explanation I have come up with. How could he not appreciate the unbelievable science, movement, and technique Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, harold Johnson, Jersey Joe display?

 

What is Fleischer's list ?

 

Cause Fleischer always favored fighters from the past, just like many on the Classic do.

 

I knew Nat Fleischer and had many conversations with him, I was a youngster but used to go up to the Ring office to get my magazines at times and to buy old ones and books and Ring Record book which was an amazing item at the time. I remember the 1st one I got it was the bible of Boxing, There was nothing like it at the time. Nat was an old man then but he could talk about fighters that impressed him as a youngster and always had a love for the sport. Nat had a bias for the fighters that made an impression on him as a young man and a lot before him time. Sometimes you grow up with story's of certain fighters. I think a lot of people today that put Ali on a pedestal where not alive at the time so a lot of the legend story's that stick in our minds make a large impression. I remember hearing about Benny Leonard from Nat...The Ghetto Wizard and other great fighters. Nat was big on Sam Langford, Leonard, Ketchel, Greb. Nat once told me that Ali could not fight that way vs Dempsey, who he felt was a beast but he also felt Johnson was ahead of his times and Jeffries an athlete that was amazing.

Everyone has there own bias and it distorts the opinion but no one is without it. I have heard so called experts give there opinion and a lot of there remarks make a lot of sense but many of them are F.O.S. and way off. Nat gave me a glimpse of a day that was far beyond but certainly had its benefits. These were hard times in the world and a lot of tough guys came from the era's gone.

 

Bummy Davis that is awesome.

 

I can only conclude, SQ, Fleisher fell victim to a nostalgic hardening of the arteries.

 

Fleischer did not rate many of the then contempary fighters highly and we all have some sort of problem with that ... however to keep perspective he was commenting for the most part on fighters he saw live while we are not ... simply basing our hard opinions on poor footage when available and reading ... it is not out of reality to make an argument that Tommy GIbbons may have defeated Archie Moore ... just an example ...

 

Concerning Fleischer's ratings, the main point I would make is that he was one of the most prominent historians of boxing. While a case can be made that some of these oldtimers might have beaten Archie Moore (or Billy Conn-also not in his lightheavy top ten), his opinion that Moore does not rate in the all time top ten at lightheavyweight is certainly out of the mainstream today. The opinions of historians (or of "those that were there") should be taken into account, but are simply not definitive.

 

What's his top 10 ?

 

this is his list from the 1976 Ring Record Book

1-----Kid McCoy
2-----Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
3-----Jack Dillon
4-----Tommy Loughran
5-----Jack Root
6-----Battling Levinsky
7-----Georges Carpentier
8-----Tommy Gibbons
9-----Jack Delaney
10----Paul Berlenbach



*Fleischer died in 1972, I believe. Some might argue Fleischer simply drew these ratings up years earlier. However, he did update them. Eder Jofre was the #4 bantamweight. As Jofre didn't even become a prominent boxer until 1960, clearly Fleischer did update for him.

**just for interest, Sugar Ray Robinson was rated #5 at middle (behind Ketchel, Ryan, Greb, and Walker). Willie Pep was rated #4 at feather (behind McGovern, Driscoll, and Attell). Rocky Marciano was #10 at heavy and Pascual Perez #10 at feather. That was about it for fighters who peaked after WWII. Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Harold Johnson, Kid Gavilan, Ike Williams, and Billy Conn did not make these ratings. Henry Armstrong was rated #8 at welter.

 

:good

Well, there's no right or wrong answers.
Fleischer obviously concludes that the pre-ww2 fighters and many pre-ww1 fighters were a better crop.
And he knew more about them than we ever will, I guess.

Does Armstrong only get rated as a welter ?