harry greb, a powerful puncher?

Where to begin...

Nat Fleisher was VERY familiar with Pittsburgh fighters even before Greb? Really? Such fighters as Frank Klaus and Frank Mantel? Tell me Burt, when did Frank Mantell fight out of Pittsburgh? Because Frank initially fought out of Rhode Island before eventually relocating to Dayton Ohio. In fact, without going through his record the only time I can think of Mantell ever fighting in Pittsburgh much less being from there is when he lost a six rounder to Klaus in 1910. As for Klaus, if Fleisher was indeed familiar with him, which is debateable it was more than likely because Klaus and his manager George Engel relocated to the East coast, where Fleisher was active, during the economic panic of 1907. Indeed Klaus spent more time training in New Jersey, Boston, Philadelphia, and New York than he did in Pittsburgh and while he is and was a Pittsburgh fighter, he ceased to fight out of Pittsburgh years before he ever won a title or came to national prominance. Tell me how much time you think Fleisher, Daniels, Igoe, etc spent hanging out in the clubs of Pittsburgh, attending the fights, visiting gyms, meeting with managers, trainers, promoters etc. in the first quarter of the twentieth century? I have never read anything to give me any indication of Fleisher, Igoe, Runyon, Daniels, or anyone else who wrote regularly for Ring Magazine being close to Greb much less privvy to inside details of his early life. This era was far different than todays, in that era Pittsburgh was a world apart from New York, where all of those guys operated, and it took a long time for Greb to even break into New York much less associate with the names you mention, furthermore, he was never that popular with them to begin with, didnt like them, and considered them a major reason why he had such a hard time achieving many of his major goals. So lets not go pretending, as they did after he died, that they somehow had a rosey relationship with Greb from the time he was a child.

As for the story you quote from Paxtons "Great" bio... hahaha, Paxton simply lifted that story from "Give Him To The Angels" which was written by James Fair and full of so many lies and half truths that it was pulled from the stands by its publisher after being threatened with a lawsuit by the family. I found it strangely telling about Paxton's research, or lack thereof that at the end of his 13th chapter he presents a critique of the book as being written with little or no research and yet he quotes from that book liberally and uses its stories to constantly fill in gaps in his own lazy research.

Even if you believe the story about Greb boxing in 1908, which runs contrary to everything his family, friends, and actual diligent research show, do you suppose that in 1908 he walked into a gym too musclebound to box (at age 14) and then somehow suddenly melted into an 18 year old lanky awkward kid with no muscle??? Get real Burt, its one thing to cling to your myths but its completely another to ignore simple logic.

P.S. The picture of Greb you reference on the cover of Paxton's book was taken in 1923, more than 10 years and almost 30 pounds after his first professional fight. It doesnt really give an accurate impression of what he looked like at 18, or 14 (if we believe you, paxton, or Fair), does it?

 

In the course of boxing history, the fact that I read that some writer [not Nat Fleischer],wrote about young Greb being told he was "too musclebound' to be a fighter.in an old Ring article,is so unimportant...But read it I did...I have too many old Ring Mags to read through, for some little opinion written maybe 80 years ago...
In the history of boxing no man ever saw more great fighters from the first row than Nat Fleischer...He saw his first pro fight in 1899, NY Terry McGovern, and every heavyweight champ from 1900 to 1970...He started the Ring Mag in 1922, and when I was in the Navy, was nice enough to talk to me,giving me advice...He didnt have to do that...Nice man..
You are right about Frank Mantell not fighting out of Pittsburgh, and he was born in Germany
Frank Klaus on the other hand ,was born in Pittsburgh in 1887, and did a large amount of boxing in Pittsburgh...Klaus had about 38 fights in Pittsburgh...He was the idol of Pittsburgh before being supplanted by Harry Greb...
We all know about boxing history, from what others before us write about our boxing ancestors, and so do I ...I love true facts, not myths...
I believe I'm pretty well grounded.....

 

How old is this picture of Greb?

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That picture was taken in 1922 while Greb was in training for his March bout with Tommy Gibbons. Its listed on Bill Paxton's website of being a teen Greb but, you know, thats Paxton for you...

 

Since you love true facts so much you might be interested to hear that Frank Klaus never at any stage of his career was considered an idol in Pittsburgh. Even after he won the title. Like Frank Moran he never truly caught on with Pittsburgh fans for various reasons and as stated above he eventually left in 1907 with George Engel to relocate his base of operation on the East Coast. He continued to fight in Pittsburgh because Engel had close ties there and could get him fights but short of his bout with Stanley Ketchel where Ketchel was the draw, not Klaus, he never drew anywhere near the crowds that Greb or even Buck Crouse and some of the other more popular Pittsburgh club fighters drew. In fact it similarly dissappointing performances akin to that against Ketchel that led many in Pittsburgh to lose interest in him. But Boxrec and that stack of Ring Magazines never told you that did they...

 

Facts are not semantics...
To have fought about thirty eight times in Pittsburgh , shows to me at least that he vwas very well thought of in his hometown, Pittsburgh,Pa.
To say Klaus was not the draw in Pittsburgh against the great Stanley Ketchel, would be understandable,because before his tragic death in 1910
Stanley Ketchel was the most exciting fighter of his times....
We are going far astray in the thread about "Harry Greb. A powerful puncher", wouldn't you say ?...Enjoyed it though....

 

Thanks. He looks younger than usual but I was wondering since he also looked bigger when compared to the other photos.

 

So basically youre saying you would rather not let the facts get in the way of a good story... which makes sense seeing as how you admire fleischer so much and that was his motto.

 

Klompton, take it easy. Burt is just saying he read the story. He actually said that "who is to say if it's true or not", or something like that. And yes, I have seen pictures of Greb at early and not so early stages of his career and he was rather thin. So, I think you know what you're talking about. I have a question for you. How do you know that picture is from 1922? I am just wondering because Greb does look fairly young there.

 

Because it was from a series of photos taken at the Madison Square Garden Gym on March 3, 1922 as part of a media event to hype his fight with Tommy Gibbons. I have all the photos from that group which were taken by photographers for several major newspaper outlets.

 

klompton, I thought we put this thing to rest...Nat Fleischer is long dead so he cannot defend himself, but darn it i will.
What you are impugning, is that I lied { I let the facts get in the way!
Tell me klomton if I am telling you and ESB,a portion of a story I HAVE read, as a youngster,that some writer wrote in an old Ring Mag,saying that as a youngster ,Harry Greb, was discouraged to box, because he was too "musclebound". Are you saying that I was not telling the truth,that I read this old statement ? Why the hell would I lie about what I read ?
If you on the other hand said ,Harry Greb,as a 14-16 year old yearling was never musclebound, of course you might be correct...
That statement was correct as that old writer implied, or it could be a fabrication of that old boxing writer, no one will ever know...
And it is so uninportant, in the scheme of things....
And yes I do admire Nat Fleischer , founder of the Ring Magazine in 1922..
He lived a life , that saw every great fighter from 1900 to 1970,from the first row...Who wouldnt admire him ? I cant judge his morals, but I envied his life...B.b.

 

so put that in your pipe and smoke it klompton, you little *****.

 

Chill guys. Klompton you are coming along as quite knowledgeable when it comes to Greb. Just relax a lil tho, Burt read that statement, but whether or not you believe it shouldnt really matter

 

I have a very strong feeling in my gut the story old Bert is recollecting is the "flat nose" article about a very young unknown Harry getting battered in the gym by then Pittsburgh middleweight king Buck Crouse, something Harry made Buck pay oh so dearly for when they met in an actual match in 1917 and Greb unleashed holy hell and more or less finished Buck as a fighter. The article was penned by Frank Graham.

 

I dont think so SLAAKA,but it was possible...I know I read this little anecdote from a very old Ring Magazine, and the great writer, Frank Graham, one of my favorite boxing writers ,wrote for the long defunct New York Journal-American..Thanks for your input SLAAKA...b.b.