What is ur HW top 10?

Sure...but how much better? Jack Johnson scored a win over Joe Jeanette in late 1906. Just 6 months later In 1907, Jenette went on to defeat a 208lb Sam Mcvea. I am willing to accept that the first time Johnson beat Jenette, jenette was raw. But by late 1906 when johnson beat him, I think Jenette was a improved fighter soon ready to reach his prime. I think this was a quality win.

I also think all 3 of Johnson's wins over Sam Mcvea should count signifigantly, because sam mcvea knocked out top rated contender Denver Ed Martin twice during this period. Mcvea seemed to me, a fighter who blossomed early(kind of like Tyson).


Sam Langford, yes he was 156lb. But Johnson himself was 185lb. That's a 29lb weight advantage. Fitzsimmons weighed 167lb to Jeffries 206lb. That is a 39lb weight advantage for Jeffries. Where do we draw the line? I think Johnson's victory over Langford should be given more credit, especially considering Langford was beating and competing with heavyweights at the time.

 

Yes not doubt. But at the same time, he did DEFEAT all of them, and multiple times too. It's better to have their names on your resume than not. Johnson at least fought and beat these men, something dempsey never did with his best challengers.

 

I have Holmes high, but what were his flasgship win? Old Norton, green 'Spoon? Shavers?

You can say similar things about most champs. I agree with Janitor. Johnson's reign as a colured champion is enough to get him in the top 10?

 

Well, you agree that no one stands a great chance against a prime Ali, which was the main point I was trying to prove in my last post. As far as legacies are concerned, Muhammad Ali in his prime beat Liston twice, a past his prime, but still good Floyd Patterson, Zora Folley who is very underrated, George Chuvalo who was a tough S.O.B., Henry Cooper twice who was a bleeder, but a good heavyweight, an old Cleveland Williams who like I said was old, but damn Ali never looked better!!! Not bad for a guy who's prime was stolen from him by the U.S. government.

Now, his second career was quite great. Not the last few years, say...1977-1981, but 70-75 was unbelievable. 1976 wasn't bad either. He was the only man to stop Bonavena, he beat Quarry twice easliy, He avenged his losses to Frazier and Norton. Ali beating Norton speaks volumes because Norton had the style to give Ali fits upon fits. The third fight between Ali and Norton is considered by many as controversial, but I scored it close for Ali as did the three judges. Ali beat Foreman in one of his most intelligent performances. His performance against Spinks in the rematch wasn't the greatest ever, but was truly fantastic. He was able to dance all night and avenge the loss to become three time champ. Muhammad Ali is the only real 3 time heavyweight champ even today. Lewis wasn't really champ the first time by getting Bowe's belt out of the garbage. Holyfield wasn't the real 3 time champ by beating Tyson. Holyfield was rightfully considered the best by beating Tyson, but the best isn't always the champion. Foreman was champion then.

As Ali got older his fights became more entertaining. He rarely danced all night anymore, no he would lay on the ropes and trade. Oh yeah, you said Ali didn't fight so well on the inside. Well, that wasn't his sweet spot, I'll grant you that. But, remember the Thrilla in Manilla when he was on the ropes and throwing combinations like crazy? Impressive stuff.

Now, Joe Louis had an awesome reign. His level of competition was not the best. To be fair, Joe really should have been a two-time champion. He should have lost to Walcott the first time and came back to stop him in the rematch. To me, and this is just me, Joe's later career impresses me a lot more than his early career. Jersey Joe was a fighter! Louis knocked him out, an old Louis at that. Hey, I am not saying The Brown Bomber wasn't great. He took an ass beating from the great Billy Conn, but how did that fight end? A Louis KO. Louis was great. But, when I think of all-time lists, which of course are very subjective, I put a lot of emphasis on head to head. I firmly believe that Joe would have been handled by a lot of heavyweights through out history. That is how I feel. I think Ali being # 1 is a gimmie.

 

My man. We're on the same page tonight.

 

Lewis beat the biggest group of Punchers of all time. that is clear.

 

Well, Johnson's longevity was enough not to merit such difference in placing. As for looking good on film, I stay away from that. Boxing has evolved and Johnson shouldn't be penalised for that. He looked great to his contemproraries, that's for sure.

(I agree Holmes looks great, though)

 

Now, that was just was plain uncalled for.