Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

I think this fight boils down to the smaller bigger hearted dog in the trenches with the bigger smaller hearted dog. Liston was not a pin-point puncher and I think he has trouble getting to Rocky with the jab. This fight goes to the trenches and the later rds and Marciano gets a chance to go into 2nd gear. Liston takes the path of least resistance and retires on his stool.

Even though Liston was old, when I watch the Leotis Martin fight I can see a little similarity in the Ezzard Charles-like combo that Leotis got him with. Leotis was no Charles, not close and Liston was beyond it but I think Charles and Walcott would be tough fights for him. They were slicker and more durable than Patterson and had harder pin-point power than Machen or Foley.

There is no way I can take the thick and impressive looking Liston and discount that heart would play a huge factor in this fight.

Joe Louis although old was still bigger than Sonny by 2 inches and still had a lethal jab, I think Sonny is a harder fight but The big dog quits in this one. The little dog gets past the point of no return and does rather than die.

 

I honestly don't know who to pick, but there is one thing that concerns me about Marciano.. Sonny Liston was a more dangerous puncher and finisher than either Walcott or Moore ( at heavy weight ), and both of those men had Rocky down early... Against the man who dispatched many good fighters quickley, this might pose as a problem. Of course, I can't imagine Liston doing to Marciano what he did to Patterson, but this would be a very dangerous fight for Rocky.

 

I see rocky being decked by Listons powerful short left hook(one of the most underrated punches of all time).

 

Your right...but at the same time..

1. Was rocky even hurt from these knockdowns? He got up at 2 each time. You could argue they were flash knockdowns, despite walcott and moore landing their sunday punches on him.

2. We have never seen rocky badly hurt on film. We don't know what it takes to truly hurt him, or have him on the verge of knockout. I think Liston is one of the men who could do it. Listons left hook is one of the greatest punches of all time, and rocky has never seen anything like it. His right hand could also club you to death.

3. It's interesting. The sharpshooters(Walcott, Moore) put rocky down...while the bigger sluggers(Layne and Louis) failed to even put a dent in rocky's chin(Although a Louis left hook at the end of round 1 briefly shook up the rock)

 

Yep. The great thing about the left hook was he could throw it long too using his incredible wingspan. Rocky will never be out of harm's way of that punch. Just Lethal.

 

Incidentally, I rate Marciano higher on an all time great list, based on legacy. The claim to never having lost a professional fight along with the highest KO percentage in heavy weight history, and a reign consisting of 6 title defenses is absolutely incredible... Marciano has one of the very best heavy weight legacies..

 

He was hurt. For sure against Moore which he admitted he was. Maybe not hurt where he was on ***** street but certainly hurt enough to look around and say, WTF just hit me. I think you can tell in that one with the way he acted when down and how he got up.

Walcott's was a big shot but Moore's really wasn't that big as far as unloading. Just sneaky and right on the chin.

And remember, if Marciano has never been hurt, then we can question if he had the ability to come back when hurt. So which is it?
People can't have it both ways.

I don't have the interview anymore but he did say in one interview that he had been hurt in fights and described what it was like to be stunned without even going down. With Marciano though, he was tough and knew not to show it and still fight on.

There was an article that claimed Rocky was hurt bad in one of theTed Lowry fights but Lowry failed to follow up...maybe because Rocky was still dangerous...and without film, it's hard to say what's true. He was also said to have beaten Rocky in that first fight although he didn't get it on the cards. Lowry thought he won the first but lost the rematch.

Louis was SHOT. His power was not the same. His power had declined. Part of Louis's power revolved around his speed, kind of like Tyson's did, and once that was declined, so was his power.

Louis also had two types of punches: Short accurate precise shots that were used in combinations to get the opponent stunned and then out...and then the big bombs you see on film where Louis can be seen pulling back and unloading a bomb that has opponents flying. Those are more deadly but not required when you have the ability to throw fast, short, accurate punches in combinations.


Rocky's defense actually might be underrated. He talked about it himself on how he protected his chin from not getting hit clean...except those two times he was put down.



See if I can find it.

 

This is true, but Sonny never faced a heavyweight like Marciano either. How would Sonny react if he got busted in the ribs by Rocky, or took Rocky's famous "Susie Q" right hand? This one could go either way, but I slightly favor Rocky because Liston would probably quit once he was hurt or discouraged. You know Rocky wouldn't let up on his assault.

 

Found it. This is a good article.

Interview with Rocky Marciano

by John Summers, published in the Mandrake column of the Sunday Telegraph, 7 November 1965 under the headline ‘Gentle as a Rock’

Is boxing a noble art? Fit to be taught in the nation’s school gymnasiums? To find out I advanced upon the greatest authority, ‘the most dangerous unarmed man in the world,’ the most successful gladiator in history – 49 fights, 49 wins…



I knocked on Mr Rocky Marciano’s bedroom door and a voice you associate with misty New York

dockside rasped: ‘Friend or foe?’



‘Friend, I think.’



Inside there were blue whorls of cigar and cigarette smoke, a small crown of American lounge suits and a plump man in ragged trousers and short padding barefoot and swinging an arm as thick as your thigh.



‘… So I keep coming forward like this, left foot first, and I hit him a shot with the right, and I see his eyes roll up in his head and I give him the left to finish him…’



‘Rocky, you remind me of a skunk…!’ Somebody interrupting. I backed quickly for the door.



The Rock’s eyes widened below the stitch mark – one eye took thirteen stitches, seeing him through just one million dollar world title defence: ‘A skunk?’



‘The way you fought, Rocky, like a skunk with a farm dog and the dog keeps backing away because he knows what a punch that skunk packs in his tail!’



‘Right! Joe Louis couldn’t take my shot to the head – not even high on the head. I got to him with one high on the head and I see his eyes go “Great to meet ya!”’ The Rock comes for me. ‘Have a cup of coffee! You’re welcome!’ The Rock opens his fist and there’s a cup and saucer hidden in it.



The honesty in the round, hearty face is humiliating. I told the Rock we’re talking of banning boxing in Britain.


‘Right! Well, it’s got to come! It’s got to – in fifty, twenty-five years’ time – no, less than that – it’s got to come; as people get more civilized, they’re going to ban boxing.’



‘Rocco, my baby!’ A man lying full-length on a divan barks: ‘Whaddya sayin’…!’



‘I tell you it’s got to. They will outlaw boxing. A hundred years from now we’ll be like the gladiators, something out of history.’ The sad, gentle eyes.


‘There won’t be any boxers any more – aw, boxing’s just got to go. Less than twenty-five years, ten years or less than that maybe. In America they let fighters go on till one of them’s half-dead – Joe Louis couldn’t take a shot to the head any more.’



‘He couldn’t take one on the button, Rocky!’



‘He couldn’t take a punch anywhere on the head any more. Even high on the head. People say to me, “Rocky, you made me scream watching you fight, you looked like you’re going to get killed the way you keep coming forward taking all those punches on the chin…”’



The Rock shakes his head amusedly. ‘But I never did.’



He tucks the bristling chin into the protective shoulders. ‘I always had my chin down here. I never used to take any punches on the chin. Nobody can take punches on the chin.



‘Rocky, baby…’



‘Only time I left myself wide open was when they put wintergreen in my water bucket to try and stop me winning the world championship and my eyes stung so I had to lift my chin just to see and Walcott nailed me on the chin and nearly knocked me out.’



‘Crooks! Wintergreen they put in his water bucket!’



‘Talk about divine justice. The officials handling me in that fight, awhile after they all dropped dead.’ The Rock massaged his chin quickly.



Are there punch-drunk boxers in America? ‘Not many. Ezzard Charles. Oh, he’s banged up, oh God yes he is. After he met me.



‘Rocco, baby! He is not! Charles is not.’



‘Aw, yes. Aw, terrible, yes. He is.’ The Rock demonstrates with a press picture showing his victim’s face like a chocolate marshmallow crushed between the Rock’s fists.



‘Think! What kind of money Cassius Clay versus Rocky would take now!

Rocky could take Clay right now!’



There is a famous story of the Rock’s pugilistic encounter in a wartime brawl in a British pub. ‘Right! That’s true. But if I get in trouble like that now I have to back away. Talk my way out of it. I have to … I never like to see people hurt. I was an old man when I won the world title – I was twenty-eight. That’s why Patterson can’t beat Clay! He’s an old man. He’s twenty-seven.’



The Rock’s finger’s play constantly with the poke of his English ratting cap on his head. Going bald has hurt the Rock more than anything could do in the ring. He wears the cap even indoors and, for public appearances, a well-made American hair-piece.



‘Over here in Britain boxing is so civilized anyway. They’d never let me become heavyweight champion of England – I bleed too easy. Sure there are fights that not quite right. But not the world heavy championship. There’s too many people like Norman Mailer – like you – watching us all the time.’



The eyes soften. ‘I don’t even go to the fights any more. Don’t like to see people getting hurt. I’m a bad fight referee even.’ The Rock admits it sadly. ‘I spoil the fights. Soon as one of the fellers starts bleeding a little even, I stop the fight. The crowd don’t like it. You hear the crowd yelling. Screaming. Go on! Let ‘em fight! Beat him to death, go on! That’s the really brutal part of the boxing. The crowd.



Outside I met a sports writer. ‘You saw Marciano – what’s he like? More animal than man, I suppose?’
In the mid-1990s John re-worked this article for an unidentified magazine (possibly Country Quest), under the headline ‘How Wales Spurred on a Champ’ with this additional introduction: In the history of Welsh sports it is nowhere adequately recognized that Wales has actually once produced a world heavyweight boxing champion.
The story begins in wartime Wales and with only a few weeks to go till D-Day, when Britain’s southern ports were being readied to send allied forces to invade the continent of Europe in the final stages of World War Two.
And Swansea. South Wales it was that was one of the major boarding points for men and vehicles to be boarding their ships for the Normandy landings.
One of these soldiers as a chunkily built American GI, whose extraordinarily short legs carried him on a body that could have been that of a Roman gladiator.
The Italian cafe and fish ‘n’ chip shop community of South Wales knew him as a regular guest at their Sunday dinner tables.
To them he was Rocco Marchegnano.
One night Rocco got himself in a brawl in Swansea’s Wind Street in a bodega grill and he was nearly arrested.
His story was that on being provoked by a group of Australian soldiers with the words: ‘Yanks – you’re overpaid, over-sexed – and over here.’ He had knocked out three of them.
Next thing, as Gl Rocco was later to describe it he got in another brawl in a South Wales valleys miners pub, swapping blows with a Welsh miner who he described as ‘Big as Tommy Farr’.
And this time the ‘Snow Drops’, the US military police, were called in – they were known as Snow Drops because their US soldier steel helmets were painted white. Rocco was threatened with court martial.
‘But that’ll make us one lorry driver short for D-Day,’ protested his US commander at the GI camp in Morriston near Swansea.
A solution was hit upon. Rocco was ordered to take up amateur boxing in the clubs around Swansea.
When Rocco went home again to Brockton. Massachusetts when the war was over and back to his job as boot repairer, he changed his name to Rocky Marciano. And decided to turn professional.
I interviewed Rocky Marciano in the ‘60s. just before he was tragically killed in a plane crash.
‘They’ve closed down that lovely Mumbles Train.’ bewailed Rocky Marciano. ‘Why, I used to ride on that into Swansea many a morning. I was stationed down there in Swansea and we were billeted on Mumbles Pier and we had to sleep on straw palliases.’
When I interviewed Marciano he was just being celebrated as the greatest – and most successful – world heavyweight champion of all limes.
And the one who had amassed the largest fortune from the ring ever. Forty-nine ring battles - and 49 wins.
‘And it all started for me down there in Wales,’ he said. ‘Wales has always had that great prize-fighting tradition and from that I took my inspiration. I used to get the Mumbles Train into Swansea and get off at Rutland Street in the centre of the town and make for a gym that a Welsh heavyweight called Jim Wilde used to run just by Swansea railway station. No – not Jimmy Wilde. That was a much lighter guy from an earlier time, I used to call in at Swansea market and eat some of that hot laver bread that Welsh people cook out of seaweed, would anybody believe it. We don’t have anything like that in the States.’
But now having retired undefeated from the ring Rocky, had turned against the very idea of boxing and he said he thought it ought to be banned. An interesting notion from the British public these very days, when a recent series of tragic ring deaths and serious injuries have been grabbing public attention.



http://www.john-summers.net/marciano.html​

 

Sonny fought a Prime Cleveland Williams who was a 6'3, natural/over 200+ pound HW. Don't forget that.


What's the damn "Susie Q"?

Which punch exactly?

I've seen Rocky landed the right hand and have fighters not go down so let's not act like it was this special punch like Little Max had when he got those Stars in Mike Tyson's punch-out. Rocky liked to wear down his opponents. If a big punch happened to land clean and take you out, fine...but let's not act like all he had to do is hit you and you were out with this special punch he kept in secret reserve to take you out any time he wanted. He could take you out, sure, but there was no secret punch. It was just a nickname for his big right and it didn't always take you out. I'm sure it hurt like hell though.

They nicknamed Sonny's jab "The Cannon." Hey, maybe Rocky gets tagged from Sonny's special punch (which was a jab), called "The Cannon" and the fight is over. Can Rocky take "The Cannon"?

Liston NEVER quit when he was in his prime and training. And he had been in tough fights so let's not act like he never met resistance. Williams gave him a tough fight even though it didn't last all that long. But Marty Marshall, in their first meeting, with a still up and coming Liston, had his {Sonny's} jaw broken early in the fight and went the distance.

He quit later on when his life was a mess, older, and was facing arguably the greatest HW in history who was a 6'3, 200+ pound HW with freakishly fast hands as well as fast just overall.

 

What are you talking about? Rocky got up at the count of 2 against Moore. His head was clear, he was fine.

Moore's wasn't that big? :shock: That was moore's best sunday punch, a straight right hand counter. Moore argubably never threw a more powerful punch in his career. I am shocked rocky got up so quickly.

Check this out


That's a 6'2 210lb Embrell Davidson in there

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMPXHqGiB28[/ame]
7:38

"Shot" is a strong word. Is Louis was so "shot", how come he won 8 in a row after losing to charles? Including victories over young contenders like cesar brion, Omelio Agramonte, and destroying the heavyweight champion of the world recognized by BBBC? He also knocked out future # 1 contender Nino Valdes in one round in a live exhibition. Both Charles and Marciano came out of there fights with Louis looking like there faces just went through a meat grinder. Why is that? Perhaps Louis had a little bit more left than you thought? Perhaps he had enough left to beat the young contenders in the division, but not enough to defeat the great champions(Charles, Marciano, Walcott). That still makes him a dangerous world class contender, despite being 37 and far past his prime. Louis did lose a lot of zip on his punches, and most of his reflexes, but he was still a big heavyweight for 1950s standards(6'2 214lb), had a top left jab, had very good fundamentals, and still had a powerful left hook. It would be very hard for those 185-190lb heavyweights to outbox a bigger 6'2 214lber like Louis. They would never get away from his Jab. Only the great ones like Charles managed to do it, and he took some horrible facial punishment in that fight as well.



Once again,

Name me 5 heavyweights in the world in 1951 who could have taken Joe Louis?

 

A punch floyd patterson would have been flattened by :good

 

Tell that to Rex Layne

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5chxdyedNw[/ame]
8:29


Tell that to Jersey Joe Walcott
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBRilCUg90E&feature=related[/ame]
4:07


Tell that to Harry Kid Matthews

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMYQiar3AP0[/ame]
:46