Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

You say he was but Rocky said differently.

Not the same exact punch. Same right-hand, which was Moore's power hand but not the same leverage.
Moore was pulling back and threw a punch that landed on Marciano's chin.

Unfair since the HW division wasn't that good in that era. Charles beat him in that era, right?
Now saying Charles wasn't good, because he was...especially ATG wise he was maybe the best LH in history. But still, Louis wasn't prime. Won't argue "shot" to pieces. I see your point. But he just wasn't there. So that may be "Joe Louis" by name, but that was no "JOE LOUIS."

Even Louis weight, it was best around 199-207 tops. Maybe if he was fighting today or really even back then, and they put weight on him just to beef him up a bit while trying to keep him still fighting the same...yeah, I could agree that 214 of solid, young muslce would be good for him...but that was a 214 pound man that was worn torn.


OK, maybe not "Shot" but far past his prime. For me, looking at a young Joe Louis and comparing it, yeah...he is shot.

Can you really say that looks anything like a young Joe Louis that fought, say, Max Baer?

Or how about these Highlights. God he was a wonderful fighter in his prime.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DteKctJFIVE[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffr72V38isY&feature=related[/ame]

 

Maybe. I've seen other fighters take that punch and not go down. Rocky literally beat opponents down with a lot of his shots.

Even an Old Louis took that bomb in the first round and Louis wasn't taken out.

Floyd Patterson can go down, but he has also gotten back up. Of course he can be taken out too.

Patterson had bombs of his own.

 

First off, Walcott was being worn down. He had take punishment from clean shots prior to that final shot. And that shot as far as the devastating effect was helped by Waclott throwing a punch as well and trying to land but Marciano got there first. Sill a big punch, no question.

And if you go by what some say, even Teddy Altas (who I admit I'm not a big fan of) but he did bring up one point with Old School fighters back then and their gloves....Gloves back then were made out of horse-hair which over the course of the rounds, later in the fight, it would get wet from sweat and the hair would move away from the knuckles which left just your fist and the leather.

And let's not forget that Walcott was 38 years old and had been in wars and had been taken out before...even from a Past Prime Joe Louis years before.

Rex Layne: Yes, one shot can take you out. That same shot actually landed on an Old Joe Louis in the first round so you never know when it will take you out. Although I think the Louis shot was right on the chin and the Layne shot was right on the Temple.

Mathews: Seriously? How big was Mathews?
Where did he start his career...what was he known more of as far as "prime" division weight?

 

I got Marciano by stoppage. Am i sure? No. But i think Liston will discover Marciano is quite hard to hit, and packs a great punch himself. Those unorthodox punches will find their way in. I don't see Rocky going into survival mode nor do i see Liston boxing a safe fight - you need to either be much taller and bigger or much faster than Marciano for that. And Liston is neither.

 

Yes, but Liston never fought a pressure fighter like Marciano. I don't know how he would have reacted to Rocky slipping his jab and pressuring him relentlessly on the inside.

Unfortuneatly, we don't know how old Liston was when he fought Ali. But no one tested him more than Ali. That was his toughest fight up to that point, and he quit on his stool. And then he threw the rematch.

Marciano/Liston is a fight that is hard to call because neither man fought someone the caliber of the other. Could go either way, but Rocky would stand up to Liston. And that makes a big difference.

 

It was even more surprising to see Floyd be stronger than the same Mosley who manhandled Margarito. Having said that...

Liston will land. And Marciano will. I think the difference in this fight will be that Marciano can take as good as he gives, while Liston can't make that claim. Several people (not talking about McGrain) get Foreman-Frazier associations but i don't see why. Marciano was more durable than Liston (unlike Frazier/Foreman), Marciano hits as hard as if not harder than Liston (unlike ...) and could start fast (unlike ...).

 

Marciano scored 4 one or two-punch knockouts on the limited film that is available of him - Layne, Walcott I, Walcott II, Matthews. Note that all of these are against ranked opponents. How many can Liston claim? You've probably seen his footage more recently than I have, so correct me if i'm wrong when I say: only Westphal, who was unranked.

Scoring one or two-punch knockouts shouldn't be the deciding factor on who carries more punching power, but this is just one way of measuring. Other ways:

-Knockout percentage (edge: Marciano)
-Knockout percentage against ranked opponents (edge: Marciano)

Now, scoring a stoppage doesn't just depend on power but also the ability to get that power shot in. Skill. However, i'm convinced that every will claim Liston is more skilled - and perhaps rightfully so. But that does speak volumes about Marciano's power.

 

Well I wouldn't use the Moore version to fight Liston. I'd want a more calculated slugger like the one that fight Louis to Walcott-LaStarza II maybe. I think Walcott definitely surprised Rocky by dropping him, but I don't think he was that badly hurt... just that he didn't see the punch coming. He took a shellacking in the last 2 rounds before Rocky KOed him. Liston can fight well off the back foot, but he's not knocking Marciano out this way.

I think Marciano getting low would be a strong key. Liston has reach and is tool, but his lower center of gravity would give him an edge in strength and leverage on the inside. And while Liston's stamina was slightly better than Foreman's - he still only went the 12 round distance once and could never maintain a pace that Rocky might want to set. Be tough to get off.

Rocky's got to slip that monster jab. That is a tough task, getting past the out-side with Liston. On the inside it's still dangerous, but he's way more in a comfort as he'll bruise Liston to the body and come back up. I worry about Rocky's skin holding up, but in a dog-fight like this where a man keeps coming after possibly being dropped I think that hits hard on Liston's morale. He might think this guy were crazy, and he might slowly break as much mentally as he does physically. The early to mid rounds are key, as are those championship rounds. Liston's never been in a dog-fight like this. And stopped only 1 man past 10 rounds (And that was in his last fight). Usually he gets them out of there. He's never been 15 rounds... this needs to be stressed.

 

To be honest, even after just having done so myself, I think it's silly to debate whether Marciano hit harder than Tyson, Liston, Shavers, etc, and vice versa. They're all at the end of the scale power-wise and the difference between them is marginal anyway.

The difference in punching power won't be the telling factor in Marciano vs Liston.

 

Add Vingo. There is some footage of him being laid out with doctors surrounding him.

 

Yes I saw the Marciano /Vingo ko in MSG in 1949..After the ko in the sixth round i and the crowd thought Vingo woukld not survive that terrible beating from Rocky...Vingo was rushed to the Polyclinic Hospital across from MSG, and it took him months to walk again..Vingo a great prospect then never fought again...I can NEVER forget that beating....

 

I know this isn't the answer anybody wants, but if Marciano (managed by IBC's al Weil) actually fought Liston (manged by Carbo/Plaermo) is there any real chance the fight would be on the level?