What if Ring Magazine rankings had existed during Jack Johnsons career?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janitor, Jun 3, 2010.

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  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    janitor, Jun 3, 2010
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  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    janitor, Jun 3, 2010
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  3. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I once pretended to be Ring and came up with these year-end ratings;

    1899

    Champion Jeffries
    2. Sharkey
    3. Fitxsimmons
    4. Maher
    5. McCoy
    6. Corbett
    7. Kennedy
    8. Ruhlin
    9. Childs
    10. Martin


    1900

    Champion Jeffries
    2 Fitzsimmons
    3 Corbett
    4 McCoy
    5 Ruhlin
    6 Sharkey
    7 Childs
    8 Maher
    9 Kennedy
    10 Martin

    1901

    Champion Jeffries
    2 Ruhlin
    3 McCoy
    4 Childs
    5 Sharkey
    6 Root
    7 Martin
    8 Maher
    9 Griffin
    10 Gardner

    1902

    Champion Jeffries
    2 Fitzsimmons
    3 Ruhlin
    4 Martin
    5 Johnson
    6 Gardner
    7 O’Brien
    8 Root
    9 Hart
    10 Carter

    1903

    Champion Jeffries
    2 Fitzsimmons
    3 Johnson
    4 Ruhlin
    5 Gardner
    6 Root
    7 Hart
    8 O’Brien
    9 Armstrong
    10 McVey

    1904

    Champion Jeffries
    2 Johnson
    3 Hart
    4 Root
    5 O’Brien
    6 Gardner
    7 Ruhlin
    8 Ferguson
    9 Martin
    10 McVey

    1905

    Champion Hart
    2 Johnson
    3 O’Brien
    4 Jeanette
    5 Root
    6 Fitzsimmons
    7 Ruhlin
    8 Kaufman
    9 J Twin Sullivan
    10 Schreck

    1906

    Champion Burns
    2 Johnson
    3 O’Brien
    4 Langford
    5 Jeanette
    6 McVey
    7 Kaufman
    8 Schreck
    9 Hart
    10 Ruhlin

    1907

    Champion Burns
    2 Johnson
    3 Kaufman
    4 Langford
    5 Jeanette
    6 McVey
    7 O’Brien
    8 Schreck
    9 Jim Flynn
    10 Sullivan

    1908

    Champion Johnson
    2 Langford
    3 Kaufman
    4 Burns
    5 Jeanette
    6 McVey
    7 O’Brien
    8 Hart
    9 Ross
    10 Schreck

    1909

    Champion Johnson
    2 Langford
    3 Jeanette
    4 McVey
    5 Kaufman
    6 Ketchell
    7 O’Brien
    8 Ferguson
    9 Lang
    10 Schreck

    1910

    Champion Johnson
    2 Langford
    3 Jeanette
    4 McVey
    5 Kaufman
    6 Burns
    7 Lang
    8 Jim Flynn
    9 Dan Flynn
    10 Curran
    Top


    1911

    champion Johnson
    2 McVey
    3 Langford
    4 Jeanette
    5 Wells
    6 Jim Flynn
    7 Al Palzar
    8 Carl Morris
    9 Dan Flynn
    10 Clarke

    1912

    Champion Johnson
    2 Langford
    3 Jeanette
    4 McVey
    5 Gunboat Smith
    6 Willard
    7 Ross
    8 Mc Carthy
    9 Jim Flynn
    10 Palzar

    1913

    Champion Johnson
    2 Smith
    3 Langford
    4 Jeanette
    5 McVey
    6 Jim Johnson
    7 Pelkey
    8 Willard
    9 Moran
    10 Carpentier

    1914

    Champion Johnson
    2 Langford
    3 Jeanette
    4 McVey
    5 Carpentier
    6 Clarke
    7 Dillon
    8 Wills
    9 Levinsky
    10 Coffey

    1915

    Champion Willard
    2 Johnson
    3 Moran
    4 Dillon
    5 Wills
    6 McVey
    7 Jeanette
    8 coffey
    9 Langford
    10 Morris

    1916

    CHAMPION Willard
    2 Wills
    3 Miske
    4 Dillon
    5 Morris
    6 Levinsky
    7 Moran
    8 Weinert
    9 McVey
    10 Jeanette

    1917

    Champion Willard
    2 Wills
    3 Fulton
    4 Langford
    5 Norfolk
    6 Miske
    7 Greb
    8 Dempsey
    9 Jeanette
    10 Gibbons

    1918

    Champion Willard
    2 Wills
    3 Dempsey
    4 Fulton
    5 Gibbons
    6 Greb
    7 Miske
    8 Meehan
    9 Madden
    10 Jeanette

    1919

    Champion Dempsey
    2 Wills
    3 Fulton
    4 Greb
    5 Gibbons
    6 Carpentier
    7 Miske
    8 Johnson
    9 Norfolk
    10 Brennan

    1920

    Champion Dempsey
    2 Wills
    3 Fulton
    4 Greb
    5 Gibbons
    6 Carpentier
    7 Miske
    8 Norfolk
    9 Tunney
    10 Weinert

    1921

    Champion Dempsey
    2 Wills
    3 Fulton
    4 Gibbons
    5 Tunney
    6 Carpentier
    7 Miske
    8 Greb
    9 Beckett
    10 Brennan

    1922

    Champion Dempsey
    2 Wills
    3 Greb
    4 Gibbons
    5 Miske
    6 Tunney
    7 F.Johnson
    8 Brennan
    9 Beckett
    10 Carpentier

    1923

    Champion Dempsey
    2 Wills
    3 Firpo
    4 Tunney
    5 Carpentier
    6 Miske
    7 Gibbons
    8 Greb
    9 Renault
    10 F.Johnson
     
    mattdonnellon, Jun 3, 2010
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  4. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    jANITOR, LOOKING AT MY RANKINGS FERGUSON WAS PROBABLY A TOP 10 MAN FOR SOME OF HIS jj FIGHTS AND ROSS PROBABLY WAS CLOSE.
     
    mattdonnellon, Jun 3, 2010
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  5. timmers612

    timmers612 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Matt, you put allot of time and study into those rankings, much appreciated, very interesting!
     
    timmers612, Jun 3, 2010
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  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Unbelievable thread. Thanx Ben and Matt. Ben, you have just done jack johnson a great service. Matt, That was a highly informative genuine list.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 3, 2010
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  7. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Interesting, Matt! I did something similar years ago, ratings from 1870-1923, just to give myself some kind of guide for evaluating these older heavyweight fighters. Yours are probably better than mine were. I'm no expert on fighters before my time. That's for sure! I'll try to hunt up my lists sometime and post them.

    For comparison, I think I remember my 1899 list went something like this:


    1899 (Mine)
    1 James Jeffries
    2 Bob Fitzsimmons
    3 Peter Maher
    4 James Corbett
    5 Tom Sharkey
    6 George Byers
    7 Frank Childs
    8 Gus Ruhlin
    9 Joe Kennedy
    T Charles McCoy

    1899 (Yours)
    Champion Jeffries
    2. Sharkey
    3. Fitxsimmons
    4. Maher
    5. McCoy
    6. Corbett
    7. Kennedy
    8. Ruhlin
    9. Childs
    10. Martin

    For some reason, I don't seem to remember Martin. I'll have to look him up.
     
    djanders, Jun 3, 2010
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  8. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Great posts, Janitor!!!
     
    djanders, Jun 3, 2010
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  9. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Some other interesting ones, Victor McLaglen, might have snuck into the top 10 o thereabouts potentially, with his early win over Fred Russell, but would have probably dropped off the ratings with his loss to Denver Ed MArtin.

    Bill Lang, would have been a top 10 contender around about the time of his loss to Johnson. He was technically, probably the Equivalent of an alphabet champion before Burns beat him the first time.

    Despite being past it, an old Bob Fitzsimmons could have easily been a top 10 fringe contender, the way Holyfield and others are always hovering around that spot. After he did have one win the year before. and handled futrue world title challenger Tony Roass quite well in an exhibition.

    Jack Munroe's win over Maher and Ruhlin, and his choice as a world title challenger make him a definite Top 10 contender in Ring Rankings.

    Jim Johnson, had fought Langford, Jeanette and McVey on pretty close to even terms, and was starting to build a good win streak when he met Johnson. I think he is another who would have been in the top 10.
     
    Boilermaker, Jun 3, 2010
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  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Some interesting maybes:

    Guys like Fred Russel and Jim Jeffords might have broached the lower half of the top 10 at some stage but I wouldnt care to say if or when this would have happened.

    Tony Ross as others have suggested might have crept in. He is sort of the Andrew Gollota figure of his era who blew a fight that he was winning against Marvin Hart by fouling.

    Bill Lang and also Bill Squires would probably have been ranked at some stage based on the hype around them.

    Bob Fitzsimmons name might well have secured him a lower top 10 ranking.

    Jim Johnson would have broken the top 10 at some stage, but I suspect not when he fought Jack Johnson.

    In all, Lil Artha might have fought more than 30 ranked contenders.
     
    janitor, Jun 3, 2010
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  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Excellent summary.I question how green Langford was when he met Johnson though ,he was certainly still physically maturing,[as was Johnson], but he had engaged in 50 fights, considerably more than Johnson. How green can you be, if you have 50 fights under your belt?
     
    mcvey, Jun 4, 2010
    #11
  12. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    RING magazine often produced very bad ratings. I know it's all subjective, but the RING had some odd choices for rated fighters, and some horrendous ommisions too.
     
    Unforgiven, Jun 4, 2010
    #12
  13. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Love to see your list, Byers was a good fighter, well forgotten now.
    Back to Janitors point, Johnson did some clearance on his way to the title. Also what about Moran?
     
    mattdonnellon, Jun 4, 2010
    #13
  14. Meast

    Meast New Member Full Member

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    When all the opponents are listed like that it really makes your realise what a stacked and competitive era it was.

    Cheers for this!
     
    Meast, Jun 4, 2010
    #14
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Very cool read and interesting thread.

    Using Matt's rankings concerning Johnson:

    In 04, his first year as the #1 contender, he fights nobody in the top 5.

    In 05, he meets the #1 for the first time, losing on points. He also goes 1-1-1 (the loss a DQ) with the #4 ranked Jeanette, so he does fight in the top 5 this year, coming out with a 1-2-1 record.

    In 06, Johnson has his best year in this sort of company, going 4-0-1 with the #5 ranked Jeanette and beating the #4 ranked Langford. An impressive 5-0-1 amongst the top 5, more than scrubbing the deficit he produced the year before.

    In '07 Johnson meets nobody in the top 5. In fairness, these fighters were Jeanette, whom he had already proven his superiority over, and Langford, who he had just beaten, and two white fighters, Kaufman and Burns. Johnson meets one top 10 ranked opponent, beating the #9 Flynn, so he's not exactly treading water.

    In '08, Johnson had his breakthrough, beating the champion. 1-0 versus the top 5.

    In '09, Johnson beats the #5, Kauffman, giving him another 1-0 year.

    After this, Johnson at no time matches anyone in the top 5.

    As a champion, then, Johnson only once matched a top 5 contender.

    In 06, 08 and 09, Johnson has a positive record against top 5 contenders, but on two of these occasions he met only one of them. In '05 he has a negative record against top 5 contenders, and that is his lot between the time he came to be ranked as the #1 contender in the world (on Matt's list) and his retirement.

    Johnson's list of top 10 contenders matched might be impressive, but in terms of the top 5, he doesn't do nearly as well. He fails to match most of the men on the list, only once matches a top 5 contender on his list as champion, NEVER matches the #1 or #2 contenders in his time as champion and as the #1 contender he at no time matched the #2 contender. In fact Johnson only matched the man who could be desrcibred as the the next best fighter in the world twice, and he has a record of 1-1.

    In the department of top 5's, he does less well than many of the great champions, although his record of 8-2-2 (by my calculations) isn't at all bad. However, it should be noted that 5 of these wins come over the same man, Jeanette, and that only one of those wins comes against the champion or next best ranked opponent, Burns. So I have him beating only Kauffman, Langford, Jeanette and Burns from the list of top 5 contenders throughout his entire career. Not impressive given how long he was #1 contender or champion.

    This is stict scrutiny, and I wonder what the same kind of thing would have to say about Jeffries or Corbett?


    Pile in with any correctins, i'm not very good at this sort of thing.
     
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2010
    #15
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