Thoughts on Vitali vs Dragon

I don't think this point can be emphasized enough. In the old days the only way to become the man was to fight the man. There was no valid excuse for Valdes to refuse a fight with Charles with the winner to get a shot at Marciano. If his management thought he was up to it, they would have taken it.

Today you just avoid the dangerous fights, and instead become the champion of one of the myriad organizations. Fighters grow old and we have never seen them in with the top men. Haye might never fight either of the Klitschkos, but it remains in his interest to badmouth them. If their fans are sore as a boil at Haye they will probably plunk down the cash to see the loudmouth Haye get starched by someone else. A win-win proposition for Haye.

 

Did Moore Deserve a shot before 1953? Maybe. Suzie Q says Marciano's management avoided that match for a while.

In the early 50's Charles was greater than Moore. When Valdes defeated Charles, and won a string of 11 fights in a row ( also beating Parker and Jackson ), I think he deserved the next shot! Nino Valdes was the #1 ranked guy for over a year. The fact that Charles somehow leapfrogged the guy who beat him last without Nino Valdes losing during that time line isn't exactly kosher.

[url]1955-01-25[/url]212[url]Battling Jack Flood[/url]204

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Radio Center Arena, Huntington, West Virginia, United StatesWKO710
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[/url][url]1954-12-11[/url]208½[url]Jimmy Walls[/url]187

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Hamilton, BermudaWKO2
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[/url][url]1954-07-14[/url]204[url]Tommy Jackson[/url]190½

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Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, United StatesWTKO210[url]
[/url]Jackson was down three times in the 2nd, triggering an automatic stoppage.

[url]1954-05-22[/url][url]Karel Sys[/url]

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Palais des Sports, Brussels, Bruxelles-Capitale, BelgiumWRTD410
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[/url][url]1954-03-12[/url]211½[url]James J Parker[/url]210

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Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, United StatesWUD1010[url]
[/url]~ referee: Barney Felix 7-3 | judge: Arthur Schwartz 7-2 | judge: Jack Gordon 6-3 ~

[url]1954-02-20[/url]214¾[url]Archie McBride[/url]184

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Palacio de Deportes, Havana, CubaWSD1010
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[/url][url]1953-11-15[/url][url]Heinz Neuhaus[/url]

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Westfalenhalle, Dortmund, Nordrhein-Westfalen, GermanyWKO410
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[/url][url]1953-09-29[/url]203[url]Matt Daniels[/url]192

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Tampa, Florida, United StatesWTKO210
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[/url][url]1953-09-15[/url]214[url]Charley 'Doc' Williams[/url]198½

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Auditorium, Miami Beach, Florida, United StatesWUD1010[url]
[/url]Williams was down in the 7th

[url]1953-08-11[/url]209¾[url]Ezzard Charles[/url]191½

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Auditorium, Miami Beach, Florida, United StatesWUD1010[url]
[/url]~ referee: Cy Gottfried 7-2 | judge: Morris Feingold 5-3 | judge: Gus Jacobson 5-3 ~

[url]1953-07-18[/url]207½[url]Omelio Agramonte[/url]190¼

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Havana, CubaWKO1010[url]
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Klitschko's manager offered Haye a 50/50 split.

Five belts with marquee value you say? BS.

In case your forgot, Haye already backed out of a fight with Vitali.

No sane promoter will pay to back Haye vs Valuev II. The fight was a dud. Valuev was offered his biggest pay day, and a chance at the WBC belt to meet Vitali. He declined.

 

From Dan Rafael's notebook:

Quote:
• It looks more and more likely that heavyweight champion Wladimir Klitschko will next face mandatory challenger Alexander Povetkin instead of David Haye in a unification bout, Klitschko manager Bernd Boente told ESPN.com. Klitschko, as well as fellow titleholder and brother Vitali Klitschko, wants to fight Haye, who has trash-talked both of them for ages. Boente said they offered Haye a 50-50 deal to fight Wladimir in the fall without asking for options on any future Haye bouts. That is a major improvement over past offers, which included less than 50-50 and multiple options. Boente said the latest offer proves how much Klitschko wants to get Haye into the ring. "But we do not hear anything back from Haye or [manager] Adam Booth. All of a sudden Haye is very quiet now after doing all of that talking about fighting," Boente said. He said if they can't close a deal with Haye, Klitschko will face Povetkin whether they can negotiate terms or go to a purse bid.

So you see, Haye backed out of a fight with Vitali as soon as the WBA path opened up, and has a 50.50 deal to fight Wlad.

The Ring Magazine is not a belt, it is a distinction, and one that has some vacancies. IF Haye want a crack at 4 of 5 of the belts, he needs to fight either Klitshcko

There is no demand for a re-match with Valuev. The fight stunk. If Haye wants to fight past their prime guys, he might as well give Holyfield a shot, who of course was robbed of a win and the WBA title when he meet valuev. The entire WBA heavyweight belt is a joke these days. Chagaev had it, then he lost to Wlad without the WBA belt on the line, then it went back to Valuev, who should have lost it already, and passed on to Haye.

 

All heavyweight champs have fought a fight or two with a hopeless son-of-a-***** here and there...........

I've got decade's worth of heavyweight title fight mismatches on tape.......

In my book, "Klit-Sosnowski" was one of the better and more enjoyable mismatches to have seen as of late........

Christ only knows I've seen and taped some real winners.....

"Foreman-Roman" from '73 and "Holmes-M. Frazier" from '83 come to mind........

MR.BILL:bbb

 

"Ali-Evangelista" from '77 and "Holmes-Rodriguez" from '83 were BOTH horrid to sit through........

"Joe Louis vs. Jack Roper" from the 40s....... UGH!!! Or Louis in his '42 rematch with Buddy Baer......... GEEZUS!!

MR.BILL

 

I too, do not buy into The Ring Mag. belt........... I CARE LESS!!!!

MR.BILL

 

I do respect writer Nigel Collins who's done work with Ring Mag. and KO Mag. in the past, but he kinda' blew it when he did a feature story several yrs ago stating that all the ABC titles were on their way out the door never to return....... If anything, we've got more ABC titles in motion now than ever before.......... GEEZ!

MR.BILL

 

I am stoked that the PPV added a replay of Wlad's KO over Eddie Chambs. prior to the main event........... I needed a copy of that for my file........

MR.BILL

 

That's nonsense, it's just the spin that's coming from the Klitschko camp. Haye's camp claim something else but of course you're going to believe what you want to believe.

Even Klitschkos camp manager was on here 12 months ago saying that "I don't know why Haye has problems with the options, Haye himself asked for them"

All of a sudden the same man is on here saying "I didn't say anything earlier because I didn't want to break confidentiality but WALDO offered 50-50 with no options" :rofl:rofl:rofl

Yeah right. The fights will happen, I've no doubt about that, but both camps are using spin to make it more interesting, and therefore more sellable when it comes around.....it's not personal, just business.

 

Is this supposed to be an impressive list. Charles, Neuhaus, and Jackson were the only opponents who were certainly rated when he fought them. Parker might have been on the fringe. Then there are the washed up veterans Agramonte and Sys, veteran trial horses like Williams who had been ko'd a couple of fights earlier by Dale Hall but went the 10 with Valdes. The veteran trial horse McBride actually took Nino to a controversial split decision in Valdes' home town.

And then there is Battling Jack Flood (19-15-2)--He must have wowed them in Peoria as a test for the #1 contender.

And let's not forget the outright embarressments, Matt Daniels (6-13) and Jimmy Walls (18-29-2). Gads. The top contender fighting guys with LOSING records.

I don't know how Valdes got to the #1 contender position and stayed there as long as he did, but other than Charles and Jackson, there is nothing to sell to the American public. They would have been cynical concerning Neuhaus' actual stature as a contender, and rightly so given Neuhaus' later poor performances against an over-the-hill Layne and mediocre Henry Hall in his backyard. Parker was known to be a fringe man who had been blasted out by a washed up Bernie Reynolds as late as 1952.

It might have been one thing if Valdes was a young guy who was undefeated, but he was a 30 year old veteran preliminary fighter with a very shaky record. The fights prior to the ones you list:

3-29-1952----Joe McFadden----Draw 8. A preliminary fight in Madison Square Garden. McFadden's career record was 6-7-2 (2).

6-13-1952----Jimmy Walker----ko 6. Walker's record 13-5-1

11-24-1952---Harold Johnson----L UD 10. Two of the officials give Valdes one round. The other gives Johnson a shutout.

3-11-1953----Archie Moore----L UD 10.

4-20-1953----Bill Gilliam----L SD 10.

5-23-1953----Bob Baker----L UD 10.

You might want the public to forget all this, but they are not going to. In order to sell this fight, Valdes has to prove his victory over Charles was not a fluke. He was offered the chance, an elimination bout with Charles with the winner to get Marciano. He turned it down flat to pad his record with fights with the likes of Matt Daniels and Jimmy Walls.

*You argue both sides of the street concerning the ratings. Being #1 supposedly means Valdes automatically gets a shot. But if Charles is ranked #1, the ratings are suddenly suspect. Frankly, I don't think I would ever have rated Valdes higher than about #4 at any point between 1953 to 1955 myself. This is partially hindsight, of course, which is always 20/20, but he was certainly exposed when he did get in the ring with top men like Moore and Satterfield.

**The bottom line is that there was no HBO to guarentee a profit back in those days. The fight had to be sold to the public. Profits were in the live gate. You can stamp your foot about the Ring ratings, but there is no way if I am the promoter that I take a financial bath by putting Valdes in with Marciano and try to sell that one to the public. With his spotty early record, Valdes had to fight them all, like Walcott did earlier or Dick Tiger did later, to prove he had improved. Valdes instead took the easy road. His management had him sized up about right, as the Moore and Satterfield fights proved. The Charles victory was a fluke. He was unlikely to survive a rematch.