Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

Bad match up for Marciano. Liston was dangerous with either hand to the head or body. He could in fight or out fight, and his defense was pretty good by a big punchers; standard.

Marciano needed to give 100% to overcome shots from the likes of Walcott, and Charles. Liston was not only significantly bigger, hit harder, and more durable, he had a huge range advantage over Marciano.

Unless Marciano somehow forces Liston into a heart check early, its Liston's match to lose.

 

Prime for prime Liston takes Rocky,Liston does not beat Ali,unless it's prime Liston against past it Ali.Prime Rock against prime Ali,ah,that is different,sorry great one,I think you loose that one.

 

Hello Caelum, was just making the point that at 184 Marciano had no problem whatsoever with a 212lb Louis (you say, or meant, correctly that Louis' best fighting weight in his prime was 207 tops - but Liston's best weight in his pre-title terrorising of the division was between 205 and 210) so i don't think giving away the same difference to Liston would present any problems as such - also I think Marciano clearly overpowered Louis (admittedly he way way past it - but the point being that he physically beat up on Louis )

ALSO NO WAY IN THE WORLD DID MARCIANO HAVE TROUBLE WITH LOUIS' JAB - I DON'T KNOW WHAT FIGHT YOU WERE WATCHING THERE BUT LOUIS BARELY EVEN ESTABLISHED ANY JAB LET ALONE MUCH ELSE - MOST OF HIS TIME WAS TAKEN UP WITH TAKING AND TRYING TO AVOID MARCIANO'S CONSTANT HAMMERINGS.

Also I actually think Liston is very fast in his most devastating fights - obviously he didn't look that quick next to Cassius Clay but who would - and as I put in my initial post I haven't seen any fight where Liston ever used the jab to create distance - he was a guy who advanced forward behind his jab but he didn't box at range ever and i don't think he'd try to do that with Marciano either.

Here's the early stages of the Marciano Louis fight so you can see what I mean about Louis barely stringing together one or two punches at a time while Rock is continually getting in and roughing Louis up in close

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVHNlm9MHPM&feature=PlayList&p=7EFC8182AC968019&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=21[/ame]

and here's an example of Liston's advancing behind the odd pile driving jab as opposed to boxing at range behind it - no real use of the reach advantage here as Liston is actually trying to close the distance

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSFtNeAVloM[/ame]

Big up anyway Caelum - Liston was a truly formidable fighter so respect your opinions fully :good

 

Marciano described getting hit by Louis's left jab like getting hit by a hammer.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbl1ly8vyrE[/ame]


Old Liston:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY24J3dtoXY[/ame]

 

I've also read that getting hit by it was like nothing there. So let's by consistent about fighter's accounts.

 

Ya. That must have hurt a lot for a 185lb man to take consecutively. A lot of accurate technique and 215lb behind that. You can tell by the swollen bumps and cuts across marciano and charles' faces that they felt it.

 

He said that about Louis's right hand.

http://books.google.fi/books?id=BH4LHMbERT8C&lpg=PA97&dq=louis%20marciano&pg=PA101#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Louis still had a powerful left hook in 1951. His right was weird. At times it seemed non existent, but at other times(Against Valentino, Savold, Agramonte II, and Valdes) he threw it with mean intentions.

 

I think his right hand still had leverage behind it if his opponent was standing straight-up in front of him, like Savold and Valentino. You practically couldn't miss either of them. Marciano's bobbing & weaving made him a more difficult target to hit. Louis could no longer punch like he could in the second fight with Godoy, where he destroyed Godoy by punching downwards as well as by lifting him with uppercuts & following up with left hooks.

Watch from 4 minutes onwards:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nzZUwFvF6s[/ame]

 

Agreed. I mean Louis was the very best in his prime. Were not comparing his right hand to his prime...only to the average fighter in 1951.

Louis best work to me is his domination of Max Baer...I have never seen Louis display such fast in and out movement. His reflexes never sharper.

 

Louis weight doesn't matter much because it was a way past prime Louis who just wasn't there anymore. Like any old athlete with to much wear and tear that just doesn't have it anymore. He had no fire either. Without fire, what are you?
That wasn't a strong Louis in there. Old Muscles/Weight. You can't compare that to Sonny Liston or anybody for that matter that is in their prime.
Especially a young Louis.


The closest we have seen Marciano deal with a bigger fighter was Walcott, who wasn't exactly young either, and was basically a CW although close enough to compare to a 200+ lower weight guy. And Walcott did seem like a strong guy. I just don't think he is stronger than Liston.

 

:good knows what I'm talking about.

 

Favorite fight by Louis actually.

 

Despite being far past his prime, Louis is the most similiar opponent marciano faced in comparison to liston. not walcott. Liston at 6'1 214lb was similiar in size to the 6'2 214lb joe louis. Both liked to work off effective left jabs. Yes Liston was a lot better than that version of Louis. But, Louis was certainly more comparable in style and size to liston than Walcott was.


Liston by decision over Marciano

 

When I was younger, I used to regularly bet heavily on heavyweight prize fights and other sporting events. I didn't always win, but I won a hell of a lot more than I lost...to the point that I considered it as a second income.

Aside from being pretty good at picking winners, for many years I had a secret weapon. The name he went by was Schmitty, and he rarely failed me. You see Schmitty was a born loser at gambling...which he did often...in sporting events and other things. In my mind, I would make my selection, and then seek out Schmitty to see who he liked. If Schmitty was betting on my guy (or team), I would lay off of that one. I can't even tell you how often Schmitty saved my ass on bets I would have lost.

My point is, I think there are a couple "Schmitties" right here on this forum. Don't ask me because I won't name them. But, with my current betting activities (which involve much smaller bets lately), I use them just as I did Schmitty before he passed away (God rest his unfortunate soul - I hope he's winning with those bets of his in the sky). Through the years I have used other "Schmitties" to help save me from bad bets.

Anyway, I came into this thread fully prepared to pick Sonny in this fantasy match, mainly because "styles make fights", etc. But...lo and behold...there's a "Schmitty" in here picking Liston to win. Hmmm. Don't ask me how he's going to do it, but I'm going to go with Rocky in an upset...maybe he would just outlast Sonny and stop him late...but I know one thing...my "Schmitties" rarely fail me. I wouldn't bet on it but...yeah...I'm going with the Rock for the win.