Jack Johnson in the 1970's...?

So it is okay to be dropped in sparring, but not in a professional fight?

In all probability, the Ketchell Johnson fight was no more than a sparring/exhibition fight anyway, until Ketchell forgot the script!

 

If it was a script for a world title fight, then Johnson's ethics are in question. Which other fights might have been fixed for him?

In the 1970's fighters like Fireman Flynn, Jim Battling Johnson, Tony Ross, and Al Kaufman, would be journeyman's....below the likes of say Chavalo.

Why these guys received title shots, and men like Langford, McVey, Jeanette, Gunboat Smith, and Jeff Clarke did not redefines the use of the color line, and in the case of Smith, he was the best white fighter of that time line, with wins over quite a few people who Johnson gave title shots to.

 

Speculative.

I think that had they matched their acomplishments in their own era in the 70s, then most of them would have got some kind of title shot at some point.

 

Have you ever seen Flynn, Battling Johnson, Ross or Kafuman on film Janitor? I have seen them all, except for Ross who had a iffy record.

Anyway on film Flynn, Batttling Jim, and Kaufman have less skills than Chavalo. They don't have his chin, and probably hit no harder. I'll throw 'Papa Jack a bone and say Moran was on Chavalo's level, and might have been even a tad better as a boxer.

I would not call Flynn, Battling Johnson, Ross or Kafuman very accomplished. They were either non-elite level white hopes ( Below Smith, Willard and McCarty for sure who were the best white hopes ) or joruneyman. Each man got a title shot due to the color line or in the case of Jim Johnson a low risk type of fight that turned out to be a near colossal miscalculation for Jack Johnson.

If you are game, we can list the fighters Johnson gave title shots to, and compare and contrast to the best the 1970's have to offer. There should be no speculation here.

 

In their first fight, Jim Jeffries placed a bet on Bob Fitzsimmons to beat himself.Ethical?

 

Well sprach Mendoza.

 

I rate Johnson highly and rate him #3 (and can't see why he would be lower than 5), and think that he would fare well in any era! You are asking predominately 70-75

I think he would struggle with the pressure and tenacity of Frazier and would not favor him in this fight!

Against Ali I see what would be a very close fight, and would lean towards Johnson stealing a decision (although I would favor a prime Ali)

Foreman- tough one to call. I believe Jack was certainly able to out box him and with his solid defense quick reflexes (Which George seemed to struggle with) he is likely to last 12..and if so probably take a decision. My question is what happens when/if George catches him??? I am not sure i know the answer...I would lean towards a Johnson decision.

I think he would beat Lyle, Quarry, Young, Ellis, Bonavena and Foster.

I think the most interesting would be struggles with Norton and 70-72 Floyd Patterson.

Tough decade to throw anyone into the mix as an ATG, without removing one of the other ATG's...for me this adds 4 guys in my top 10 into a 5 year window. My guess would be losing to Frazier in 70 or 71, and unless Norton or Patterson fight/beat him he would remain a top contender and get another shot against either George or Ali. I would say he wins the title at some point, but probably does not have a very long run as champ!

 

What do you think you have seen on film, that the rest of us have not?
Flynn, going into the Johnson fight, in 1912 had not been beaten in his last eleven fights. Apart from a no contest ,and a NWs against Carl Morris which Flynn won all, the rest were ko wins, including one over Kaufmann.
Prior to this, Langford had kod Flynn it is true ,but a month previous to that they had fought a draw. He would seem to be a respectable challenger to me.

 

Flynn was Ko'd 7 times before getting a title shot from Johnson. According to Box Rec, his record leading up to the title match was journeyman like at 29-9-15. After his title shot, the mighty Flynn only won one of his next seven matches. Hardly impressive.

Flynn performance vs. Johnson might have been the inspiration of Looney Toons as Jack held the t-rex armed Flynn at bay with one hand with Flynn flailing away, then hit the with the other. I seen more skill from drunk men in bars. In the 1970's, Flynn would be a trial horse at best.

How many round of Flynn do you have vs. Langford?

 

Flynn had beaten Gardner by ko, Squires by ko, drawn twice with Sullivan,and also beaten him, kod Kaufman ,beaten Morris and drawn with Langford,drawn with Barry twice, conceding 20lbs . Barry kod Gunboat Smith in 9 rds.
Is it just possible that Johnson's abilities made Flynn look decidedly average?
What were Munroe and Finnegan's records when they received title shots against Jeffries?
Fiinegan had been kod in 4rds by Ruhlin a month before challenging Jeffries, in 4 rds he hit the floor 7 times.Was he a worthy challenger, or a journeyman?
Munroe had won 9 of his 14 fights when he faced Jeffries, most of them over novice," tough man" types.
Flynn was not great ,but he was a respectable challenger on a winning streak of 11 fights over the last 2 years.

 

While I don't think Munroe was the best challenger, he had already beaten two hall of fame fighters who were past their best, lasted 4 rounds with Jeffries ( but he was down a few times ) in an 4 round ex match, and drew with Griffin. Remember Griffin? He is the man Johnson could not defeat in three tires. I tend to think Munroe was a bit better than Flynn. He was only stopped once in his career.

The difference is when Jeffries was matched vs a fringe contender type in Munroe, he blew him away in 2. The fight should have been called in round 1 as Munroe's corner man had to enter the ring and drag him back to his corner. The Minster lasted 55 seconds. when Johnson was matched vs a similar class, they went too many rounds, went the distance, or even drew.

As Champion Jeffries pretty much fought the best out there. As Champion Johnson avoided the 4 best challengers. It is obvious you are trying to deflect from the title and point of this thread.

I'd rather hear how you think Johnson would do in the 1970's.

Do you think Johnson would beat Ali, Frazier or Foreman?

Do you think Lyle, Quarry, and Norton were better than any man Johnson gave a title shot to?

 

Smart accounting.

The loosers end of the purse was smaller, so Jeffries efectively ensured that he would make roughly the same amount of money win or loose.

 

I am not deflecting anything. I am questioning your appraisal of Flynn and I have stated my reasons.


Ok ,I think Johnson beats Frazier by dec.
I think Johnson decisions Foreman
I think Johnson loses to Ali by dec
Johnson by dec over Quarry
Johnson dec over Lyle
Johnson dec over Norton.
Better ? Probably ,but then I think the 70's is the premier era for heavyweights.
They were certainly better than Munroe and Finnegan.

Another thing in their favour ,they were not old, smaller men ,coming out of long periods of inactivity.