Jack Johnson in the 1970's...?

Frazier is a terrible style match up for Johnson. Swarmers are meant to beat boxers, Frazier would crowd and pressure him, and finish him off in the later rounds.

 

This is also why I think it's a joke to match-up Ali, Frazier or a 1970s Foreman with the champions of today. The sport has advanced and the primitive style of the 1960s/1970s would not be competitive today. It's just nostalgia that makes people think that Ali could compete with the Klitschko brothers, David Haye or Alexander Povetkin.

 

Boxing, like all sports, has advanced since the 1970s. You wouldn't pick footballers from the 1970s to beat modern titans. Look how primitive their technique was-

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Look at that defence! Wladimir would find it easy to land his jab against such a style.

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See how glove blocking has advanced. Frazier's stance leaves him totally out of position. How could he deal with Vitali's height?

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Look at that! Are you telling me that Povetkin couldn't take such styles apart? Neither boxer's stance leaves them in punching position.

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Look at that stance! How is a boxer that off-balance going to deal with David Haye's THUNDER?

 

It is true that most people who use the "advances in every other sport argument" usualy want some sort of cutr off point artound the 1970s.

Muhamad Ali's prime was nearly 50 years ago now. If you argue that Muhamad Ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time head to head then you are dismissing the advances in other sports as much as sombody who argues the same of John L Sullivan.

 

Sharkey had won 1 fight in his last 7 ,been kod in 3 of them and had not fought in 2 years.
Maher had won 1 of last 6 fights, that a dq over the pitiful Joe Grim, been kod in 3 of his last 6 fights, and was an incurable alcoholic ,he dropped Munroe.
Both over the hill and down the other side.Spin, Spin, Spin.

 

Langford and Mcvey couldn't do it.
Buster Mathis, essentially a boxer, was in front when Frazier caught up with him , why couldnt Johnson do better?
Swarmers are good matchups for Johnson ,imo, he has the best uppercut of the heavies to punish a croucher, he was very strong inside, and he could nail them coming in.
Frazier's face would swell up like a balloon, he beat a great boxer once,
The fight ruined him.
That boxer was coming off 18rds of boxing in nearly 4 years.

 

If Jackson Johnson does not develop his style to larger gloves and a shorter distance he gets beaten easily by the big three. Although an all time great heavy I think he would fall short when it comes to those guys, but come out on top of Lyle, Quarry etc

 

:rofl:rofl Johnson lacks the agression to keep off a Joe Frazier or George Foreman. Watch Muhammad Ali fight Joe Frazier and try and pretend that these guys aren't on another level in terms of offensive skillsets. Johnson was from another era, equally great but hard to favour in H2H match ups.

 

I can see where you are coming from . Johnson was essentially a passive counter puncher.Does that mean he could not adjust to Frazier's style though?

Frazier would also be very vulnerable to uppercuts coming in imo.

Also ,its by no means a given that Frazier would dominate once he got inside, Johnson was very strong in the clinches.
Foreman ? awesome power ,but his defence consisted of trying to catch punches in his gloves and pushing his opponents back to maximum range for his swings ,I don't think that would work against a master boxer like Johnson.
Foreman 's head was also easily reached with punches he had zero movement.
Its all how we interpret things and who is to say who is correct ?

 

The question regarding Johnson who I happen to think was exceptional in his day was how he could fight if he had to fight at a faster pace .. a guy like Frazier was fast, strong, hit like a truck and threw sixty punches a round ... Johnson might have thrown twenty in the films I've seen of him ... punching more would expose him as well and I do have questions about his chin ... again, the match up, ringsize, ref are all very key.

 

Johnson is a passive counter puncher like you said, he is brilliant at laying traps and has a very good uppercut. But I would put his level of power closer to Ali than Foreman and I don't think that he can stop Frazier from coming in, once he is there then he can start to make his greater activity pay. Even if Johnson has success with counter punches he would be forced to work far harder than usual for him and be worn down IMO.

As for Foreman he certainly had his flaws but he also had a very good jab and his power could get ANYONE out of there. This is the closer fight for me as Foreman may gas but then again it's not something you can plan for. The fact that Foreman had so much success with his crude style is a testiment to his power and strength. A Johnson - Foreman fight is interesting but I think that Johnson is overwhelmed.

 

I think you are right about johnson on the inside dominating ( i think you do need to assume a neutral ref, who will allow the clinching). How will Frazier possibly throw the same number of punches, with Johnson constantly grabbing him close, wrestling in close and landing the uppercut. This will upse his rhythmn and i am not sure about how Joe would or wouldnt adjust.

I think you overstate johnson's defence consisting of catching punches on his mits. Like chris byrd, he does that a fair bit, but watch him in close, his head is always tucked in perfectly behind his shoulder, so he cant get hit cleanly. HIs arms are always positioned on the inside, to stop Frazier from being able to land with anything, but allow him to do damage with the uppercut. And Johnson is constantly on the watch defensively. Frazier, Ali and Foreman, and even manyof the contenders are good enough to beat anyone on a given night and it is impossible to say any fighter would definitely beat them. But Jack Johnson was good enough to say that unless he is caught cold and KOd (which is very unlikely no matter who he fights, though like everyone possible) then Johnson will make a good account of himself, regardless of who it is.

 

Mathis was not in front when Joe stopped him...Frazier was tied on one card and 6-4 7-2 (7-2 was my scorecard..Mathis took the first and probably nipped the 2nd???) were the others. I have heard Several people say this and about quarry as well. Not disputing that johnson could not pull this off as he is one of my favorties, I just don't think he would!

 

You are right, I am wrong Frazier was ahead,a senior moment let me down. :good