Joe Frazier H2H???

Owned

 

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: Favour Frazier.

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: 50/50.

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Favour opponent, but Frazier has high chance.

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Longshot.

 

Ali W
Louis L
Johnson W
Marciano L
Holmes W
Foreman L
Dempsey W
Lewis L
Holyfield W
Tyson L
Liston L
Bowe W
Wlad W
Vitali W
Patterson W


I have Joe Frazier going 9-6

 

It's very close with me. I see it being a war. I only side with Marciano because of the two fisted factor, but sometimes I think frazier might beat him.

 

His chances against other greats is difficult to gauge.... On one hand, he defeated the man who many call the greatest of all time... On the other hand, he lost two out of three when the other said fighter was past it.... He also got destroyed in no time by a guy who makes the lower top 10... His struggles with Oscar Bonavena might also call some things into question..

His handspeed, heart, and workrate, along with upper body movement would give him a chance against a lot of good fighters though.. I'd say Frazier vs a peak Holmes is a 50/50 bet.. While Joe is in a higher league than Wlad, Vitali and Bowe in terms of talent, I don't know if Frazier can over come the physical advantages that he'd be giving away to these guys.. Lennox Lewis is a man who I'd always favor heavily to win, and at times, even seems like a mismatch to me...

 

Even money v Holyfield,and Bowe.
He beats the Klits and Floyd.
Loses to the rest.
Louis
Marciano
Foreman
Dempsey
Lewis
Tyson
Stop him

Ali
Johnson
Holmes
Win by u dec .

 

The burden is on anybody who picks Ali over Frazier to point out on film how they think that relevant aspects of Ali's game declined on film from '67-70.

 

I don't have time to pull up multiple youtube clips, and do a side by side comparison.. But, I do think that some of his speed, footwork, and ability to maintain such a high workrate over 12-15 rounds had diminished some... I can remember listening to some of the commentary when I watched his fight with Bonavena, and someone saying how much more flatfooted he looked... He also seemed to have spent more time fighting Frazier inside the pocket rather than being on the outside as much.. He certianly took a lot more shots post 1970, than he ever did before, and was resorting to a lot of holding techniques and leaning on the ropes, as opposed to masterfully using the ring and footwork, the way he did in the 60's....

Now, how far diminished was he in 1971? I couldn't say for sure, but I think its reasonable to say that only fighting twice in four years, dulled some of his abilities, and based on observations that I made listed above..

 

Reflexes ,legs, stamina.
Why do you think he spent half the fight backed up in a corner?
If you doubt his decline, perhaps Chuvalo's opinion might convince you ?Chuvalo said , during their second fight. Ali was no longer able to maintain his pace and fought in spurts.
The burden is on anyone who picks Frazier over Ali because he went 2 up in their trilogy, benifitting from more ring action, he clearly beat Frazier in the 2nd and third fights.
Frazier had ONE great night over a ring rusty champ , he was never able to duplicate it, and defended against 2 unranked , ham and eggers, before being decapitated by Foreman.

 

I have to agree with this, and it actually backs up my post, that I wrote shortly before yours..

While a debate over weather or not a 1967 Muhammad would have beaten Joe, could go on for pages and pages, I think one things for certain... Ali had lost some of his edge.. I won't sit here and say that he was washed up by age 29, because that would be utterly ridiculous, and frankly, the sort of thing that Frazier fans claim to justify Joe's loss to Foreman....

 

Joe was certainly past it against Foreman in 73. Joe looked dreadful in his title defenses in 72 against C level fighters. He put on 10lb of fat. He lose his desire in training, lost that mental edge, and he was no longer lean and trim anymore. FOTC took everything out of him. Joe was still a great fighter in 1973, but far from prime.

 

But, see these noticeable differences don't stop Frazier fans from excusing his loss to Foreman, but somehow, Ali's 4 year layoff and signs of deterioration go ignored...

On one hand they will say, " Frazier beat a peak Ali, and would have done the same to him in the 60's."

In the same breath we get, " Frazier was totally shot against Foreman, despite being 29 years old, the reigning heavy weight champ, and less than two years removed from his best performance"

I know its not as simple as that, but I think anyone with any objectivity can clearly see the double standard there.