Larry Holmes vs Sonny Liston

reznick:

:good 100% correct!!

 

No he wasn't. Foreman was actually good enough to beat a great heavyweight, and didn't habitually quit in fights with a world title on the line.

 

I have Liston at #4 and Foreman at #5 in my all time heavy list

I think what made Liston just a tad bit better than Foreman, was his technique and skill set.

 

Holmes wins by mid-round stoppage.

Holmes won 22 of 23 total rounds with Shavers as is, and this time he wouldn't have to contend with Shavers' heart.

 

See this is where I think the world has it confused.

Liston's heart in the ring, cannot be questioned. His life had complications to it, that nobody can concretely define to this day during the Ali fights. All of his previous fights he showed tremendous heart. He fought the majority of a fight with a broken jaw. He showed great power and skill in the 10th an final round against whitehurst in their 2nd meeting. These are only instances I can recall off the top of my head, but theres many more.


I still believe to this day, that if Muhammad Ali was never born, Sonny Liston would be viewed by most of the world as the greatest heavyweight who ever lived.

 

Sure it can, just like any fighter who folds in back-to-back fights (the second time worse than the first) against an arch rival with a world title at stake.

The whole point of heart is to overcome those kinds of "complications" and adversity. The argument that he had great heart as long as it wasn't tested too much is an inherent contradiction.

He controlled most of his previous fights. How can a fighter show "tremendous heart" when his heart's hardly being tested in the first place?

How is that indicative of "tremendous heart"? This is exactly the kind of deliberate exaggeration people use to overrate Liston and excuse his shortcomings. Ironically, if Liston was actually the fighter those people claimed, this kind of exaggeration would be unnecessary in the first place.

How can you "only" recall two instances of something you claim happened regularly in 40 or so fights?

He had a long way to go before laying a genuine claim to that honor at the time he first fought Ali. Are you saying he still had enough life left in him at that time to accomplish all that was needed to do so?

 

^^

 

If the going gets tough in this fight I like Holmes because of his greater fortitude. Liston was a brute and physically tough and imposing. Holmes was kind of pear-shaped but looks in his case were deceiving. He was as mean as a cornered snake and tough as rawhide leather. Unless Liston scores a clean kayo this is Holmes' fight.

Holmes TKO 13 Liston

 

A. A great heavyweight who was past his prime and 10lb overweight. Liston beat a prime Floyd Patterson, a great heavyweight.

Funny..Foreman quit mentally against that same fighter. Got his ass handed to him. Difference is he was 25, while liston was 33...and Ali was far older against foreman than he was against liston. We do know the foreman-Ali fight was definitely on the level, while the liston-Ali II fight was certainly a tank job.

Also,

Foreman's big flaws got exposed when he lost a clear unanimous decision to Jimmy Young. Liston cleanly beat his master boxers in Machen and Folley. Foreman didn't.

 

I have an interest in the topic at hand, obviously. I don't love the "bull****" though. At the end it becomes an unnecessary drain. You say I love it, but I'm one that stops them (You call it quitting. It's a ****ing discussion on an internet forum). Which one is it though, can't have it both ways. Clearly you enjoy it all just as much. I mean any kind of posting is your favorite activity, let's be honest.

The thread got deleted?

No

First of all, this is bull****. Second of all, stop responding then. Clearly you can't or don't want, I've at least shown the ability to know when something should end. And if I'm so unimportant as you love to try to say, then why on Earth do you deal with me? You must not value time, or do you have some interest in talking to me.

You responded to a post that wasn't even directed towards you. Admit it... well no you can't that's one of your worst flaws.

In a literal sense; sure, but it's wrong. There's a difference in a valid and invalid opinion. Like having Liston in your top 3 while having Foreman outside your top 10.

Ah, I guess I've pulled a McGrain.

 

This doesn't matter to them. Liston is some invincible machine in fantasy land. On paper, Liston is an awesome fighter. But sometimes paper doesn't translate into winning success. Like the 2004 Lakers, for analogy purposes.

 

Come on Suzie, you're better than this. Foreman didn't quit mentally. In fact, the reality is he actually beat the count. Liston almost refused to get up... yeah he didn't want to get up with a crazy man hovering over him.

A tank job does give credence to your credit, it takes away from it.

 

Liston took a dive in the 2nd fight. You won't convince me otherwise. Fixed. Ali-Foreman wasn't a fix. Joe Gans tanked it against Terry McGovern..do we hold that against him?

 

Who do you think mentally quit more... George Foreman against Muhammad Ali, or Sonny Liston against Ali (2nd fight)? Maybe I can convince you on that.

 

??

I was just about to say how Liston is the most under appreciated fighter in this forum