Larry Holmes vs Sonny Liston

Well, you did make this comment:

... which implies that you view the decline from 1960 as being significant but that from 1958 as not being so.

And I don't think there are any good reasons to believe that, as you know.

Yeah, "very obviously". Yet there's no real difference (let alone "obvious" difference) between '64 Liston and '60 Liston.

Another point I made earlier is this: You have to take into account the opponent. Liston was getting absolutely taken apart by Ali; it wasn't the consistent, extended display of his skills in the way some of his other performances were. Therefore, it can't really be used to accurately gauge a decline.

 

There is no evidence for any of your claims, apart from the age thing, which is obviously unimportant.

 

Argh, periphrasis. You admitted that Liston "may" have declined between '58 and '60 on account of his apparent loss of speed. But you're certain he declined from '60 to '64 on the same account (which I dispute, but let's put that aside). That is a plain double standard.

You can, but you have to be careful about what claims you make, and it's a very shaky evidence base.

No, because that's not a period that is being discussed.

 

I'm uninterested in them. These claims float around all over the place about all sorts of fighters. Napoles apparently became a rampant drunkard prior to the fight with Hedgemon Lewis; he came out and put on one what I think was one of his best past-prime performances against an excellent opponent.

 

He was still physically prime (I feel the last ever prime Holmes), and he was entirely motivated, money wise and importance of the fight wise. He knew Cooney was very dangerous, and he knew the amount the fight meant; he really wanted to win and felt like it was a dangerous fight. Holmes tended to underestimate fighters (Weaver, Witherspoon, Spinks (Michael), and Weaver) and he did not show up completely prepared like he did against Cooney.

Other performances I feel Larry was 100% are the Berbick, Evangelista, and both Shavers fights.

 

100% for all of them. I think the Cooney fight was the last ever 100% Holmes. He quickly went downhill from there, even in the Cobb fight he wasn't as fast as he was in previous fights.

 

I would say he wasn't fully motivated for many of his later title defences, which showed from the condition he came into for some of them.

 

Such "evidence" pops up after just any unexpected results. I take them pretty lightly to be honest. I think we all can agree that it wasn't very best version of Liston that turned up against Ali, but it's hard to make a strong case for any dramatic decline.

Anyhow, interesting fight this. It's very close to 50-50 IMO, but perhaps Holmes' combination of speed, skill, durability ring generalship and toughness just sees him nick it. The battle of jabs would be very interesting.

 

Holmes was 212 1/2 pounds for Cooney in June of '82, and 217 for Cobb come Nov. of that same year....... I recall KO mag. ripping Holmes for being at his heaviest weight and his oldest age (33) of a fighter at that juncture....... STILL! Holmes carved Cobb like a turkey for 15 rds.......... No shame at all........

MR.BILL:bbb

 

This thread has begun to run amuck......:think

MR.BILL:shock: