Larry Holmes vs Sonny Liston

He's definitely not.

 

Liston did it to himself in the "Distrusted" / "Distasteful" department...... Most posters agree that Sonny "Boy" Liston was a damn good heavyweight fighter from 1958 to roughly '64.... BUT! As a champion, his reign is lackluster and tarnished.... KO's over Floyd Patterson are completely overshadowed by his odd KO loss to Clay / Ali.....

Also, as much as I happen to like a mean and sullen looking heavyweight champion, the media and average Joe apparently does not...... Liston was not a good speaker.....

Point is, Liston's image didn't sit well with the early 60s.......... But, he was a good fighter.........

MR.BILLbbb

 

I should. It might be the only time I can see him say that. He gets so agitated with me that he could never admit it in one of our discussions.

 

You think Itrymariti is saying this is the best Liston we've seen on film? I don't, he's just saying there's no real significant decline based on the footage. You guys are selling certainty, he's just selling doubt. That's the sort of claim that you guys would have to show the burden of proof for (Which there isn't a ton of. Precisely his point).

 

I think a real point that Liston seemingly gets the benefit of the doubt is his mental prowess as a fighter and a champion. He did a quit job twice in world championship fights. One he was getting beaten and did hurt his shoulder, and another in a totally disgraceful affair. It seems to me he gets a pass in whatever fantasy fight that's going to be tough, rugged... a fight where he's going to possibly get punched and stood up to an awful lot. And in this particular one, Holmes has all the ability & skill, and certainly the technique to give Liston hell.

Yes, early in his career he fought with a broken jaw against Marshall. Liston was trying to make a name for himself, obviously he has a pulse. But he's never done it in the defining moments. He's just been a hugely dominating HW. Maybe that gave him complacency or boredom, I'm just speculating.

I many times think mental decline can be more important than physical decline. A fighter who loses it mentally usually fought differently, and fights with a lot less belief and purpose. An over-confident fighter still think he's on top of the world, until proven wrong. What Ali did to both Liston and Foreman shows something strong about him, and says something about his opponents, both of which were over-confident champions. Surely Liston was a little older, but an idea that he was so much past it? I don't know, the Ali fight wasn't his finest hour. And was relatively inactive for a champ, but many champs have been inactive. It's as if we have to make more excuses for the dominant, more commanding, almost bullying type champions. The ones that are suppose to blow the lid off of everyone. I've been guilty of probably overly doing this with Foreman (Who I think gets the least amount of excuses made for him). But Liston, Tyson, and Foreman have in common a sharp blistering peak. And then a sudden fall from grace. Being stood up to in a fighter that has both the heart and the skills to do the job is something... and maybe we should focus more on Douglas mesmerizing display against Tyson. A near shut-out. Ali's tactics, wit, and toughness against Foreman. And a young Cassius Clay dismantling an invincible champion. A champion so invincible that he was favorite against the same man AFTER the first defeat. That speaks volumes. And if there was any sort of decline in these men... it is to say after all that it's not significant, dramatic, or any way really provable. Maybe their fight tactics were off, or a little bad. But as a presence and a fighter they were dethroned from their grace, they didn't fall naturally out of grace. Film doesn't show us anything spectacular to mark the dominant champion losing speed or ability so abruptly. What we see is defining performances from the other side of the isle of the ring. All special marks and defining moments and performances in boxing. That's where most of the credit should stand, and less should be taken by excuse-ridden rhetoric about the dominant champions decline.

End Ramble

 

It's typical of you to say something like this. I'm one the one who at least admits they're wrong, or have been wrong. And I've admitted that I can be stubborn or strong-opinionated on certain issues that I have a strong belief on. You, on the other hand make every excuse in the book. If you've been proven to be in a minority, you talk up about how determining a fighter's hand-speed rather than chin is far less subjective... EVEN when you're losing the poll that requires "more subjectivity" by more than the supposed factual one. And really all you're doing is just knocking the poster's at ESB for being unable or inadequate to decipher through something like 'chin' rather than 'hand-speed.' Like it's so difficult and takes so much intellectual analyzing to come to such an accurate conclusion. They must not know better. Why try to knock a poll, rather than just accepting that you're opinion is in the minority. Rather than just coming up with some bull**** deterrent to ease your ego. You use talk to get around any kind of accountability.

You say I defy when I'm proven wrong. I recognize it at the least least... but you do the same thing you accuse me of anyway.

Yes, but I'm the crazy one.

 

I always liked Sonny, and I'm not really sure why. With that said, I'm leaning toward Larry in this match-up, but I wouldn't be reaching for my wallet to put any bets on it.

 

I said you never do when talking with me.

I left the Cooney name out. I added in with the Clark one when I forgot that one. I admitted it's probably more of a name than a win. Henry Clark amounted to absolutely nothing afterward, so I don't think it's that crazy. And it wasn't to inflate Foreman's resume, since I left both names off initially. I don't need to inflate Foreman's resume... it speaks for it self. You needed the inclusion of Clark as if that was going to boost Liston's resume over Foreman's. You wanted me to add a Post-Ali win, as I largely forgot Liston career at that point... as did most since he was black-listed for his disgrace.

And Liston was stunned by Williams. I also used the Ali fights as a comparison but of course they went largely ignored. Hilariously, I might add as Liston is a dead man walking. Yet Ali hit harder in 74 than 64 and Foreman ate his punches like cup-cakes. Liston got staggered back. Sometimes an omission, and ignoring aspects of the argument to push your own agenda is worse than a question critical comparison. Something you have to do to...

A) Not know whether Liston's chin is worse than Foreman
B) Think Liston is a #3 HW while having Foreman outside your top 10 list

 

Princess you are an untrustworthy instigator ... nothing new here ...

 

Didn't I say the same thing in the pre-prediction? You seemed to read my posts in different slant. Cheerily telling us? What are you talking about... I didn't even engage in an argument I just stated my piece and went off. Seems like you really pay close attention to all my posts with such a disdain.

And do you realize that I picked Marquez to win anyway? I didn't realize Vasquez eyes were damaged goods. The difference between us is I actually know my limitations. Pretty sure I set straight many times I didn't see Vasquez last fight.

That was all in jest and if you couldn't tell than you truly moronic.

No, it's because your pride won't let you because you see me as some terrible poster. Is your mind so distorted to think you dominated me in that Liston thread or something? I've got people that agreed with my posts. I guess I'm a terrible poster that can make some good points.

Since you've outlined my mistaken predictions (In which I predicted the ****ing winner right). How about the ones I got dead-on?

Said Clottey would fight in a shell and only try to survive and be lucky to win 2-3 rounds based on quotes pre-fight. Made a thread on general about it.

Picked Pac by late TKO over Cotto. Made a post right before the fight stating that I was nervous that Pac would just be way too much for Cotto (I was rooting for Cotto).

Picked Ward over Kessler. Paulie over Diaz. Picked Haye over Valuev via decision. Mayweather over Mosley (Who didn't), Williams over Martinez. Picked Adamek to decision Arreola. Maybe if you seen my betting wins you wouldn't think my predictions were awful.

What I got wrong. I thought Abraham would beat Dirrell. Initially picked Pavlick over Martinez.

By the way, rarely see you post anything of substance in general so I can't find something to criticize you there. You just seemed to post one-liners of nothing.

By the way. In advance if the fight happens I got PAC SD over Mayweather. I'll bump my analysis and this thread if I'm right, and if I'm wrong you can do the same.

*Edit* Need I remind you that you liked my thread on the crouch. You're just betting childish and petty now.

 

:blurp

 

Folks,

Things are getting a little outta hand here......... WTF?

MR.BILL

P.S.

I ain't budging..... Holmes butchers Liston in the late rds...... Holmes gets a ponderous but strong Liston drunk and then mugs him for all that its worth........ Holmes TKO 11 Liston.......

MR.BILL