Who has better footwork: Liston or Louis?

I've done both of my rotators :| In my experience you can still fight you just have to punch differently if that makes sense, you get about 1/3 of the power at best, you can't throw your full array of punches either. Its better to feint more with the bad arm, its also allot worse once it cools down after training than it was during the adrenaline packed heat of the moment, if you suck it up and work through it the blood that engorges the shoulder takes the pain away somewhat

 

I think Louis' footwork and just overall **** against Baer was incredible...his best fight. He should have used that extra bit of mobility that he had against Baer more often. Louis was incredible.

 

He was having problems with Cooper even before that last left hook landed.

Cooper was able to hit him with a number of left hands early, and managed to bloody his nose it appears:
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This is what makes Liston's sudden quit-jobs against Ali even more ironic, as Ali had something of a stylistic problem with left hands at this stage of his career, and that's Liston's most highly praised weapon.

It wasn't until the rematch with Cooper a few years later that Ali had developed a strategy for avoiding left hands, switching from side-to-side much more and using more head- and upper body movement.
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This was Ali at the top of his form, in '66 and '67.

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He clearly won rounds 2 and 5 by wide margins, and arguably won round 4 (although it was close) with his pressure and harder punching. And although he was hurt bad early and probably lost round 3, he did come back to win the second half of the round and hurt Ali. Note that both fighters were looking a bit weary by the end of round 3. This was a very competitive fight, which is what made the ending such a sudden and universal shock.

 

He was indeed pre-prime; but that's the point. He was still pre-prime and somewhat vulnerable at the time he fought Liston.

He was hurt early, but he also clearly won rounds 2 and 5, and was competitive in the other two rounds. See the vids I posted above.

 

Who knows.

The fact remains, whatever reasons (valid or otherwise) he might've had for quitting the first time, he had a chance to at least partially redeem himself in the rematch.

 

That's all true, though the footage shows how effortlessly Ali poured it on when he needed to. He came straight out in the fourth round and blasted Cooper all over the place. I really think he was cruising in those early rounds.

I disgree. I don't think Ali had any real technical abilities that he developed to deal with left hands (or, indeed, anything else). To my mind, he relied on athleticism and reflexes to deal with his opponents' offensive tactics - factors which are there as much when you're 21 as when you're 25. Ali was actually hopping back and slipping Liston's jabs with remarkable ease, I thought (see 8:30 and 9:38 in the below video). Now, of course, Ali kept on gaining skills (judge of distance, timing etc.) until his peak in '67, and so I agree he wasn't in his prime against Liston. But this certainly wasn't a Bernard Hopkins-esque evolution where a fighter leaped up in class by transforming themselves with a myriad of technical innovations.

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I always thought Ali circled to his left with very few exceptions, even in his later career.

I agree. But like most fighters whose abilities are rooted in physical and athletic talent, they are often near their peak from the very beginning.

Liston may have won two rounds (at most IMO), though one of those was through freak cheating rather than because of any great proficiency in the ring, and were not indicative of a man with a genuine shout at winning the fight (and his wildly amateurish attempts to follow up on Ali's predicament only reinforce that). More importantly, it was Ali who was entirely in control of the fight, was attacking with impunity and winning easily when he wanted to, and it was he who had built up much more momentum. I have absoltuely no doubt, absolutely none, that he would have won the fight hands down had not Liston packed it in.

 

In what way?

No ****. He got nailed and realised the guy in front of him wasn't a complete chump after all. He turned on the class and Cooper never had a chance after that.

 

Yes, I said I've had PM conversations knowing I'm not crazy. You said I go around PMing others about you. That is not what I said, and that is not true.

I would think it wouldn't matter if I had no credible.

I don't know if this is really true, and neither do you. I would say recently, sure. All the stars are aligning with these Liston threads.

I've had less discussions with you than with at least 3-5 members here. It's only been recent history. If you honestly percieve things this way then you're bonkers on your perception of reality.

Honestly, stop the bull****. I can go on the way many do by angling a discussion towards someone was "Some people" etc, but does that matter? People generally jump in with this "AM I one of these people." I'm just being direct about the matter. I'm not obsessed with you, as much as I'm passionate about the sport of boxing, and interested in others opinion on your opinions. Considering how crazy I find them.

 

Thanks Mcvey. I feel like Liston almost more than any other fighter on this board gets this sort of cop-out reasoning for his weaknesses. As if he was better served to not cut off the ring, I find it a little preposterous.

 

Deliberately begging the question is a fine way to get out of the argument. Rhetorically quitting on your stool, I might say.

 

Didn't the FBI investigate the Ali-Clay I fight? It concluded that Liston legitimately hurt his shoulder. The way the press and media retell the story is that the bully quit, but I think Liston might've had a legitimate injury. At least someone showed me an FBI report before (Not here).

On the thread in footwork. Can anyone tell me why Liston's inability to cut off the ring is not a deficiency? I feel Louis would have trouble with a speedy big guy like Ali, but would give himself chances but trying to cut off the ring. Trying and cutting off the ring aren't the same, but by trying to do so you give yourself way more chances. How could Liston compete in the ring with any big, fast, rangy fighter if he's found a way around his jab. After his physical advantages get nullified, Liston would have trouble with any real slick-boxer-mover fighter I imagine.

While he did fight a vast amount of styles, I don't really think that highly of the men he did fight. No doubt good fighters, but not fighters that could trouble Liston in this area. I don't think Ali would be the only one. I'm wondering how he'd deal with a young Holmes... and even guys like Jimmy Young. Heck, I'd be interested how he handled some of the smaller mobile fighters like Billy Conn. He likely batter and catch them eventually, but it would be interested to see how the action presents it self. One of Liston's greatness lies within his ability to handle opponents in all ranges. He's not just great on the outside and middle, but he's also good on the inside. So it's hard for any cutey do make Liston's style and inability to cut off the ring be seen as a weakness if he's not able to trouble him on the outside with anything.