Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier: Video

Heart isn't anything. I rate Frazier very highly as a HW, top 5 or 6 at a guess, and higher than Liston without a doubt. But vs. Liston he's up against a guy with great timing and punch picking with probably more power than his chin can take. Frazier could win if those things aren't quite true to the extent I think they are, or if he survives the early onslaught and gets into gear, his defensive intuitions taking over. But I do think this is a 60/40 fight for Liston.

 

I explicitly said he was a ***** compared to Frazier or Holyfield, i.e. in manly HW boxing terms. I didn't mean it in the same sense that I would when calling a girl "a *****" for being scared of a spider.

 

No...:huh Why would anybody be comparing somebody's heart to Wlad? Wlad hasn't been in an adverse situation that he's had to dig himself out of, quite. He fights scared, though that might represent lack of killer instinct, which isn't the same as lack of heart (though they may be related). Wlad is untested, mediocre. Holyfield and Frazier are paradigmatic examples of heart; it's natural to bring them up for comparisons in that department.

Vitali is a mixed bag, because of the Byrd incident and then the Lewis incident giving two contrasting pictures, though the former is probably more telling. Liston had one/two Byrd-esque instances (though not as bad) but then didn't have a Lewis-esque instance to make up for it.

 

See the above semantics.

 

Thats one great vid!

 

Yeah, but how did that relate to the existing discussion?

I never said he wasn't - in the relaivised sense.

In Vitali's defence, the Lewis fight did indicate a change in attitude on his part, as if he'd reacted to the stick he got post-Byrd and came out determined to do better, i.e. he "developed more heart" in a sense.

Well, he was ahead vs. Marshall at least. The Ali situation was more severe in that he was in danger of losing the fight and the title.

 

No, he proved that he could go to war, take big shots, be hurt and come back fighting hard.

See above.

Did your card have it even?

Liston was getting ****ing caned.

He has an excuse rather than being exposed in the ring. Similar to a classic slave reaction. You're not getting what you want, so you pretend you never wanted it in the first place.

 

When? Against Williams?

I don't think there's any conclusive evidence either way.

Well, there you go. Like I say, he was getting slowly dismantled, and was heading for a lopsided and humiliating defeat.

 

It's also worth remembering that Ali often started fights slowly.