Ingo vs Baer

I think this one is closer than many people think. Baer's defence was really wide open and Johansson hits like a truck. I can imagine Baer getting caught and being unable to recover. He also has quite good boxing skills - not a fluent, complete boxer, but against the crude Baer, it won't matter. What will matter is his general lack of durability. If he doesn't get Max out of there, he's likely to end up on the receiving end of a TKO. This is probably what most people expect to see, and not without reason. But it should not be forgotten that men like Schaaf, Kennedy, Nova, Loughran, Farr and others have gone the distance with him.

Johanson certainly has the boxing skill to do that, if he power doesn't bail him out. There's just that Bruno-factor always lurking...

 

Neither should it be forgotten that Kennedy was kod in 3 rds in the rematch against Baer.
Farr was dropped twice in their rematch which Baer won comfortably.
What should also be remembered is that Schaaf in the rematch was kod in the last seconds of the last round and had to be dragged to his corner ,where his seconds worked on him for several minutes bringing him back to his senses.
Baer was past it when he lost to Nova.
How about Johannson being floored and out of it in the last round against average hitter, Euro level Brian London?

 

Baer kod Kennedy in 3rds in the rematch.
Knocked Schaaf out in the closing seconds of their rematch he was out for several minutes and had to be dragged to his corner.
Floored Farr twice in their rematch for a comfortable win.
Was over the hill when he lost to Nova ,and had bad hands.
I think he kos Ingo fairly easily ,and if Ingo lands Baer stays upright, if Max lands, Ingo is bye byes for a week.
Take a gander at the Ingo v London fight.

 

Is this a discussion about a prime Baer against an untrained, over-the-hill Ingo?Ingo 1963 compared to Ingo 1958 is different like night and day....

 

Ok , how come Ingo gained 10bs of suet , in the 9 months between the second and third fights with Patterson?

Ingo beat Patterson ONCE in 3 tries ,he beat Machen .Who else?
His resume is about the slimmest of any heavy Champ.
Cooper had been stopped in his last 2 fights.
Erskine had been kod in 1 rd a year ealier by Valdes .
Bates had lost 4 of last 10 with another a draw.
Mcbride had lost 10 of last 14 fights.
Ten hoff was 36 and had lost 3 of last 6 fights.
Neuhaus had lost 2 of last 4 fights.

 

How about this?
Ingo`s heart wasn`t in the ring, he just wanted to make money and get a better life. he was very clear of this right from the start of the career.
When he beat Patterson he had achieved his goal and started to live the easy life,he didnt care about training an maintaining a good form.
Johansson after 1959 is a mere shadow of the once hungry fighter.
About his opponents, he never ducked any fighter in Europe, fought them all and beat everyone, you cant blame Johansson for having weak opposition.He got to be the europechampion twice.
As a european from a little country that has little interest in boxing,he didnt fight much in the states but taking on Machen was a big chance and he pulled through.
His amateur record is 71-61-10 an he got a silvermedal in the olympics 1952.
He knocked out Hoff in the 1st round, Bates in the 2nd breaking his jaw.
Cooper was good enough to almost knock out Clay and he was knocked out in the fifth.Erskine had beat Bates, Cooper,Bygraves and Pastrano and was a clear favourite before the fight.Ingo won in the 13 round on Tko.
Baer won his title from Carnera, in my eyes one of the weakest heavyweight champion ever.

 

Baer by KO, to heavy a puncher for Ingo to handle.

 

I have to agree at least partially with Swede_Dreams--this seems a bit like pushing a double standard.

1. "Erskine had been ko'd in 1 rd a year earlier by Valdes"

And Schmeling had been ko'd in 1 round by Gypsy Daniels. Valdes had been the #1 contender and had fought his way back to a high ranking position. Sure, Erskine is no Schmeling, but this one round ko defeat was his only loss in 34 fights going into the Ingo match. He would defeat Willie Pastrano a few months later. *Ingo knocked him out.

2. "McBride had lost 10 of his last 14". He had also beaten Nino Valdes, Bob Satterfield, and in the fight prior to facing Johansson, he had beaten Willi Besmanoff, who was himself coming off a win over Bob Baker. McBride had fought a disputed decision with the #1 ranked Valdes in 1954 in Havana. *Ingo won an easy decision.

3. "Bates had lost 4 of his last 10 with another a draw" *Ingo knocked him out in two.

4. "Ten Hoff was 36 and had lost 3 of 6". Ingo was fighting his 12th professional fight. Ten Hoff was an ex-Euro champ, had wins over Jack Gardner, Gene Jones, Walter Neusel, and Jo Weiden. His only losses had been to top men--Walcott (world champ), Karol Sys (#5 world, Euro champ), Neuhaus (#4 world, Euro champ), Bucceroni (#3 world), Billy Gilliam (possibly never ranked, but had wins over Baker and Valdes), and Neuhaus again. Ten Hoff seems a reasonably tough match for a green kid on the way up. After all, he had gone the distance with a world champion, and had wins over world ranked men. *Ingo ko'd him in 1 minute.

5. "Neuhaus had lost 2 or his last 4". Actually, he seems to have been 6-1-1 coming into the Ingo fight, defeating Gerhard Hecht, Brian London, Hans Friedrich, and Joe Bygraves. He was then stopped in 8 by Hans Kalbfell. He rebounded from that fight to defeat Friedrich again, draw with Henry Cooper, and then defeat old Joey Maxim. *Ingo ko'd him in 4.

Perhaps these fighters aren't all that impressive, but I think Ingo did all he could be expected to do.

Compare this to Les Kennedy (39-30-2 with 12 ko defeats). Yes, Baer ko'd him in their second fight, but why did he lose the first? Ingo never lost to a second-rater.

 

If I'm thinkin' straight, I believe Ingo was actually about a pound or so lighter than he was initially for fight # 2..... Ingo weighed like 196 for fight # 1 and 194 for # 2...... After his title fight KO loss to Patty in '61, Ingo gave a damn and took the payday and entered fight # 3 at a slobbish 206 + or - pounds...... Ingo was erratic....

Floyd Patty added weight as the number of fights progressed but it was all muscle being added.......

Patty was more serious than Ingo.......

MR.BILL

MR.

 

You accuse me of double standards then equate a light heavyweight Schmeling who fought for the German national title at that weight a year after losing to Daniels ,with Erskine losing by ko a year prior to facing Ingo?

Mcbride was a journeyman,Besmanoff beat a Baker who had lost 2 of his last 4 fights 3 of his last 6.
Ten Hoff had fought Walcott 5 years earlier,Peter Wilson who was ringside said Walcott could have stopped him if he tried.

Ingo himself stated he realised Hoff had never been a world class fighter,and at 36 he was all done.
Neuhaus was also finished, he had one more fight with the inept Westphal who stopped him in 6 rds.
I think Ingo was possibly just slightly above Euro level.
Ingo never lost to a second rater? He only fought 2 first raters imo.
Missing on his resume are many fighters.
Folley
Anthony
Jackson
Hunter
Carter
Moore
Baker
Bethea
Harris
Dejohn
Pastrano
Mcmurtry
Valdes
Miteff
Liston
Johansson's rep rests on a blow out of Machen and a ko of Floyd, who blew him out twice in reply.

 

1. Schmeling--I don't know what you are saying here. Schmeling was knocked out by Gypsy Daniels on Feb-26-1928 in one round. Six weeks later, on April-4-1928, Schmeling won the German heavyweight title from Franz Diener. On Feb 1, 1929, less than a year after the Daniels fight, Schmeling ko'd Johnny Risko in 9 in New York in an elimination bout for the heavyweight title--Schmeling weighed 185, Risko 190. Later in the year Schmeling defeated Paulino Uzcudun. On June 6, 1930, Schmeling won the heavyweight title against Sharkey.

Schmeling was a top heavyweight contender in 1929, the year after he was knocked out by Daniels. He was champion in 1930, two years and four months after being knocked out by Daniels. What is the issue?

And Daniels was not a top contender like Nino Valdes.

I'm not putting Erskine on Schmeling's level, but Erskine had only lost once, and one defeat does not define a man's whole career, as Schmeling proved.

 

2. Hein Ten Hoff

"Ingo himself stated Ten Hoff had never been a world class fighter"

Did he state this in English or Swedish?

Anyway, depending on what is meant by "world class" he might be wrong. Ten Hoff was a world rated fighter:

These are the Ring Magazine ratings for 1951 from the Feb, 1952 issue of The Ring:

World Champion-----Jersey Joe Walcott

Class 1

1-----Ezzard Charles
2-----Rocky Marciano

Class 2

1-----Clarence Henry
2-----Roland LaStarza
3-----Joe Louis
4-----Bob Baker
5-----Cesar Brion
6-----Rex Layne
7-----Hein Ten Hoff
8-----Joe Baksi
9-----Johnny Williams
10----Jack Gardner
11----Omelio Agramonte
12----Karol Sys
13----Gene Jones
14----Jimmy Bivins

*So Ring Magazine rated Ten Hoff the #9 heavyweight in the world in 1951.

**Wilson--That is his opinion. In fact, it did not happen.

***I stand by my point that Ten Hoff, and I don't dispute he was aging and slipping, was a decent opponent for a youngster in his 12th fight. And ko'ing him in 1 minute is about as good as one could expect from Ingo or for that matter anyone else.

****Just as an aside. Which one of the men who beat Ten Hoff would you favor Les Kennedy to beat? I think he goes in the underdog against all of them.

 

Okay... Let's end this overally intellectual debate on Baer and Ingo..... BOTTOM LINE: "Baer was supreme." Ol' Ingo may not have been the bum that often follows his name, but he is not worthy of top-20 ATG status...... NO!! But, Max Baer is....... # 18 from me...... 'Nuff said.....

MR.BILL

 

Nice to see Gene The Tiger Jones get a mention.

 

Hein Ten Hoff was a world class fighter in his prime. Check this out

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=57142