Ingo vs Baer

Liston by ko in the 4th

 

How do you see Ingo doing against Folley, Valdes, and Big Cat Williams around the same time?

 

I think he could beat Valdez, a close decision with Folley but Cleveland Williams around `59 is too much for Ingo to handle

 

The Euro-level argument is not all that convincing to me. Here are the 1957 ratings and some fights with Euros over the next four years:

Champion----Floyd Patterson (ko'd by Ingo)

1----Eddie Machen (ko'd by Ingo)
2----Zora Folley (lost decision to Henry Cooper)
3----Willie Pastrano (stopped by Brian London, lost decision to Joe Erskine)
4----Roy Harris (lost decision to Henry Cooper)
5----Pat McMurtry (lost decision to Willi Besmanoff)
6----Nino Valdes
7----Mike DeJohn (lost decision to Willi Besmanoff)
8----Wayne Bethea (lost decision to Henry Cooper)
9----Alex Miteff (stopped by Willi Besmanoff, lost decision to Henry Cooper)
10---Ingo

*Valdes dominated the Euros he fought.

**Certainly the Americans won their share also, but it does appear to me that the Euros were quite competitive. None could handle Liston or Ali, but then no other Americans could either.

 

Listen ,I dont know if you have ever boxed ,I doubt it somehow ,but the punches that catch you early in a fight register more than the ones that hit you once you are warmed up ,and "into it" .
Curtess Hatchetman Sheppard kod Joey Maxim in 1 rd, he caught him cold ,in the return Maxim made a ****** out of him.Dokes stopped Weaver in 1 rd their return was a draw ,which many beleive Weaver deserved.One round kos do not allways tell the full story of the relative capabilities of fighters,and often flatter the boxer who registers them.eg Liston nearly killed Patterson in one round TWICE,something Ingo never did.Yet, Machen went the distance with Sonny.Don't get carried away too much.

 

Apparently so, narrow, but vociferous :good

 

Very Questionable Decision. Says several British Newswriters scored it for Folley.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=6145,1994544&dq=zora+folley&hl=en

Folley proved it was a fluke by knocking henry out easily in the rematch.

What does this show you about Valdez single handily tearing through the European Heavyweight Scene? Valdez was not even a top 5 American Heavyweight.

 

Which other Euro fighters faced Machen ?
Folley lost a dec to Cooper he dropped him and then forgot about his boxing ,and went right hand crazy trying to finish him, he took Cooper out in 2 rds in the return.
Pastrano was essentially a LHVY, and devoid of power even at 175 lbs.
Harris was not a strong contender ,but Ingo did not face him so the jury is out on him.
McMurtry lost a split dec to Besmanoff ,which ,by all accounts could have gone either way.
Valdes would have walked through Ingo imo.
Dejohn would have been a very dangerous fight for Ingo ,his hook was harder than Floyd's imo.

Bethea was basically done after 1960, 2 years before he met Cooper.

Miteff had Cooper nearly out in the 10th.
Richardson lost to every top man he fought, he fouled out in 2 disgraceful matches against Dejohn and Williams.
Its interesting that Ingo NEVER fought Besmanoff or Miteff.
Not to mention Pastrano, Valdes,Dejohn ,Bethea, Folley, McMurtry or Harris.
Nor Williams,King, Johnson,Baker,Cleroux,Anthony.
Like I said ,thin resume.

 

Valdes?

Valdes and Johansson shared six common opponents, I believe. These were the results:

1. Archie McBride--defeated Valdes in 8 in 1948. Lost disputed split decision to Valdes in Havana in 1954.

Ingo decisioned McBride in 1957. From everything I have read, this was an undisputed decision for Ingo.

2. Heinz Neuhaus--Valdes ko'd Nauhaus in 4 in 1954. Ingo ko'd Neuhaus in 4 in 1958.

3. Eddie Machen--Valdes lost a decision to Machen in 1956, and then was ko'd in 8 by Machen in 1956. Ingo ko'd Machen in 1 round in 1958.

4. Dick Richardson--Valdes stopped Richardson in 8 in 1956. Ingo ko'd Richardson in 8 in 1962.

5. Joe Erskine--Valdes ko'd Erskine in 1 in 1957. Ingo tko'd Erskine in 13 in 1958 in a one-sided fight.

6. Brian London--Valdes stopped London on cuts in 1959. Ingo decisioned London in 1963 but was knocked down in the last round and possibly saved by the bell.

Totals--Valdes 5 wins, 3 losses, 4 ko's, 1 ko by.

Ingo 6 wins, 0 losses, 4 ko's, 0 ko by.

Other than London, Ingo more than holds his own and is clearly better in total because of Machen.

 

"What other European fighters faced Machen?"

Besmanoff and Mildenberger.

Mildenberger defeated Machen. Machen fought two European champions, Johansson and Mildenberger, and lost to both of them. (Besmanoff was never a top European fighter)

"Pastrano was essentially a lightheavyweight"

He defeated Pat McMurtry, a second-rate American who is being pulled out of the sludge as a man Ingo is supposed to have fought.

"Valdes would have walked through Ingo imo"

Whatever. In the real world he was lucky to get past McBride in 1954 and was ko'd brutally by Machen in 1956.

"It is interesting that he never fought Besmanoff or Miteff"

Whatever. Besmanoff was never a top European like Neuhaus, Cavicchi, or Cooper. Miteff? It is interesting that a man who fights Machen and Patterson is criticized for not fighting Miteff or Besmanoff when he fought men like Machen and Cooper who were much more highly ranked and who defeated those men.

 

Eddie Machen was well beyond his prime when he fought Karl Mildenberger. It's nonsense to even bring it up.

 

The men I would have liked to see Ingo face were Nino Valdes, Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, Mike DeJohn. I think Ingo had issues with big punchers, so It would have been interesting to see him face a man bigger than himself, who was rated, and had punching power. That Ed Sanders fight always comes back to me. Ingo just ran from him. He seemed so scared of the big fella.

 

I was asked if Machen fought any other Euros.

 

I actually was not comparing Johansson to Valdes. But thanx for doing the extra hard work. Always Appreciated. All I meant was Valdes destruction through the European Scene despite not being a top 5 American Heavyweight shows you the depth the Americans had over the Europeans.

 

Machen fought all four of them, though, and knocked out Valdes and DeJohn. None stopped him.

I do think you guys are basically criticizing Ingo for being a European and fighting in Europe. When he went after the world title, he fought the two top rated fighters in the world at the time.