Ingo vs Baer

I didn't mention nova because baer didn't beat him. In fact, Baer got stopped twice(albeit well past his prime).

Frankie Campbell is a good shout out

Jimmy Braddock had a decent right, but it wasn't overly powerful. He barely knocked out anyone at heavyweight. I think Braddock was very underrated as a boxer. He was tall 6'3, long reach, good left jab, high gaurd, technical straight puncher, solid textbook skills, granite chin.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acMVVn-OT2o[/ame]
Checkout 0:50 the way Braddock winds up his right hand. He puts everything into that punch. Nice Leverage. Dangerous if it lands.

 

The Schmeling win is by far his best ... Schmeling was simply a very inconsistent fighter ... the other wins are nothing to build a case on ..

 

Absolutely not.

Schmeling in his prime (or anything close to it) only lost to Louis, Baer, Hamas and Sharkey (controvertialy).

 

Agreed. I would classify Jack Sharkey as inconsistent, but definitely not Max Schmeling. He was quite consistent from 1930-1938 [outside of having one poor 2 fight period after the loss to Max Baer in 1933(which killed his confidence) but he rebounded with devastating knockout victories over Ring Magazine top 10 men to earn his confidence back by 1936.]


Also,

"nothing to build a case on". Galento was a murderous puncher, Comiskey was one of the divisions top bangers, Carnera and Santa were superheavyweights with heavy power, and Arthur De Kuh has size and power. This certainly proves baer's ability to take a punch from men above 200lb like power puncher requested.

 

you can make a case that schmeling was beter over all than baer even though baer legitamatly beat schmeling. in form Baer was a force for any heavyweight but in a 3 fight serries with almost anyone he did beat baer could drop a decision.

schmeling was the most consistant top heavyweight during the 30-38 period.

 

In response to "Machen was a more dangerous puncher than Valdes and DeJohn"

I think so, and I saw plenty of fights by all of them on the TV back in the day.

Machen over DeJohn is, I think, pretty much a no brainer. DeJohn's big ko's were over Alex Miteff (8 ko defeats in 39 fights), Charlie Powell (8 ko defeats in 39 fights) and Billy Hunter (5 ko defeats in 32 fights). None were all that durable. The best of them, Miteff, was also green.

In contrast, Machen ko'd Nino Valdes, John Holman, Hurricane Jackson, Mike DeJohn, Hunter, Pat McMurtry, and Alonzo Johnson. The ko of Valdes was far more impressive in my judgement than anything DeJohn ever did.

DeJohn did ko 32 men in 60 fights to Machen's 29 in 64, but I think Eddie stacked up against far tougher competition.

Valdes is a tougher call. He ko'd 35 men in 71 fights and quite a few "names" but I still give the slight edge to Eddie, especially in the late fifties when Valdes was past his best.

 

In terms of pure punching power, DeJohn and Valdes were on a higher level than Machen. Machen was a good all around offensive fighter, but he did not have heavy hands like Valdes and DeJohn. DeJohn's left hook is a harder puncher than anything Machen had. Valdes right hand is by far a bigger punch than anything Machen has. I think Zora Folley was a bigger puncher than Machen too. Zora is very underrated. He outboxed Machen cleanly and clearly both in their primes.

 

Schmeling never proved he could punch against big men. Ingo did. Schmeling is one major exception to the rule that smaller fellows known as punchers did well against big men.

Off boxrec's admittedly incomplete records:

Schmeling against men over 200 lbs-----4 wins-3 losses-1 draw 1 ko
Schmeling's only listed ko over a man over 200 lbs was a ko of the career 12-29 fighter Jack Stanley in 1927.

In his prime from 1929 to 1938
Jack Sharkey (a blubbery 205)-----Lost 15
Max Baer (203)-----ko by 10
Paulino Uzcudun (202)-----draw 12
Paulino Uzcudun (207)-----won 12
Ben Foord (207)-----won 12

In contrast, Ingo fought an impressive 11 fights against men over 200 lbs. He won 9 by knockout. Hans Friedrich at 201 last 10 with Ingo in 1956, surviving 3 knockdowns in the 9th and 1 in the 10th. Ingo's only bad performance was with the 207 lb Brian London in 1963.

There is no record of Schmeling ever fighting a man over 210 lbs. Ingo fought 4 and ko'd all 4, including former Euro champs Ten Hoff (6' 5", 224 lbs) and Neuhaus (6' 3", 217 lbs).

 

Neither did Ingo. Washed up version of Hein Ten Hoff and Heinz Neuhas do not count. Look what happened to Ingo vs Ed Sanders.

 

I don't think the films back up any of this up. When Machen came out aggressively, he scored ko's. The big criticism of him back in the day was that he tended to box cautiously, and so let guys last, but when he turned it on he could punch.

I stick with my opinion that Machen's ko of Valdes (a reasonably durable fighter) is by far the most impressive performance any of these three had.

Folley--The only top men Folley stopped in his whole career were Cooper and DeJohn. DeJohn was probably the most durable opponent Folley ko'd, and Machen stopped him also.

 

Ali's knockout of Foreman(a reasonably durable fighter) is a more impressive performance than any knockout earnie shavers produced. Does this mean Ali hit harder than Shavers?


Bottom line...Machen was a better fighter than both. Clearly. But he was not a harder hitter. DeJohn's left hook and Valdes' right hand were well known and well documented as being the divisions hardest punches. I have an article where Machen talks about ranking Valdez on par with Johansson and Holman as hitters. He does not put himself in that class.

 

What did happen? Seems to me there was an overly-officious referee.

Ingo always claimed his plan was to retreat for two rounds and attack in the third. As we never saw the third, who knows?

"Hein Ten Hoff and Heinz Neuhaus do not count"

They do for me.

 

I think your underselling DeJohn's knockouts of Powell and Miteff. These are two Ring Magazine top 10 fighters who DeJohn blasted away in 1 short round. His left hook was deadly when it landed, clearly.


Miteff was coming off a big knockout over John Holman and would beat # 2 rated Nino Valdes just 2 months after the one round loss to DeJohn. Clearly a big win for Mike here.

 

"DeJohn's left hook and Valdes' right hand were well known and well documented as being the divisions hardest punches"

I didn't realize they were considered more dangerous than Liston's left hook. I don't recall anyone claiming that back then.

Actually, no one claimed they were harder punchers than Johansson.