If Liston was in 1967 WBA Tourney

What is the basis for claiming what Liston "would do" to most of these fighters? Liston hadn't beaten a rated contender for roughly four years prior to the tourney, and he ended up getting flattened by the fighter who arguably fared the worst out of anyone in it.

Also, Machen was not in the '67 tourney.

Furthermore, Martin was not "one of the favorites" to win the tourney at all. In fact, he was the lowest rated fighter coming in, and had only gotten in because Frazier declined to enter, thus leaving a spot open; and along with Ellis, they were probably the least heralded fighters coming into the tourney. His fight with Ellis was considered roughly pick 'em coming in.

He was suspended by the WBA and banned by other commissions, unranked by Ring magazine and the WBA, he hadn't beaten a rated contender in roughly four years, and he'd spent the last couple years fighting in semi-obscurity in Scandinavia against non-descript opponents.

At the outset of the tourney, the WBA's top 10 consisted of 1. Mildenberger, 2. Frazier, 3. Bonavena, 4. Terrell, 5. Spencer, 6. Patterson, 7. Quarry, 8. Ellis, 9. Martin, and 10. Chuvalo. Frazier and Chuavlo had previously been proposed to fight each other in the first round of the tourney, but both had dropped out and then fought each other on their own terms. The remaining top 10 contenders were then matched with each other. What would be the argument for putting Liston in?

Chuvalo declined a spot in the tourney just as Frazier did, and the two fought each other, with each gambling that a win would provide a much shorter and easier route to the top (which turned out to be the case for Frazier).

 

There may have been some guys in that tourney that Liston could have done well against ( Floyd Patterson being the most obvious pick ), but I can't see him taking the whole thing. He was too far gone by that point, and there were too many good heavy weights in their primes to contend with. A guy like Jimmy Ellis could have outboxed him in virtually one sided fashion and even Jerry Quarry would have had my vote to beat him as well.

 

Ellis would get caught in some point... And I think Quarry would take too many punches and get cut too easy.

 

That tournament was the classic example of why it has to be fought in the ring, with all the surprises.

Having said that, my best guess is that Sonny wouldn't have gotten past Terrell at that stage. Ernie had the same sparring experience with Liston which Leotis exploited to the hilt in upsetting Sonny in 1969. Terrell was 28 years old, and he'd been a credible WBA champion, going the championship distance in four straight bouts, and winning the first three, something Liston never did.

Ernie had the height, reach, mobility and clinching skills necessary to neutralize an aging Liston at that stage of Sonny's career. (Going 15 rounds with a peak Ali while only having the use of one eye also shows a certain measure of toughness Liston was sometimes questioned as having.)

 

Both Quarry and Ellis were only beaten in their primes by fighters who could land multiple times and had the appropriate work rate to make it happen.. Sonny still had decent power, but some of that snap had lost its magic, and nor did he still have the speed or work rate to land on good boxers repeatedly.. Just because he lands a good punch here and there, doesn't mean that Quarry or Ellis would be out of it, upon first contact. We also have to take into consideration the amount of shots that Sonny would be taking, and frankly he was a sitting duck by 1967-1969... Ellis probably decisions an aging Sonny, while Quarry stops him late....

 

I hate to agree, but sonny liston probably would have whipped all of them. The powers that be knew this, which is why they kept liston from most meaningful fights. Now, is it possible that those guys cracked him on the jaw and took him out like Ali or Martin, yes, but Liston would probably be the odds favorite against all of them.

 

This is one time where the posters on both sides make equally good arguments! Eastside has some very good boxing scholars. My addition here is that I had a sloppy Ellis draw with Patterson after Jimmy won this tourny and nothing I saw in that bout would preclude Sonny not having a chance if he could keep his jab going over the distance. Quarry and Floyd were essentially each others equal at this point also and whether Sonny could edge Jerry depends on whether the Martin ko was partially due to Sonny being sick as he claimed. Sonny had little problem building up a points lead until the ko.

 

Someone would eventually upset him. Just too many tough contenders for an older Liston to handle consistently. He could potentially beat all but it would be a difficult task for an aging Sonny. Even a wiser Patterson, who was very much interested in a third match, would be trouble if he doesn't get Floyd out of there inside one round as he did twice when the two men met in their primes.

 

The WBA tournament was a great idea, and one that produced some good fights. But there were two glaring omissions. One was voluntary, the other was not. Joe Frazier opted out and went for the NY state title, rather than prove his worth in a tournament series.

Sonny Liston was still a heavily avoided man. He wasn't invited in, but I get the feeling the stench of the 2nd Ali fight made promoters a bit gun shy about putting a betting favorite like Liston in there again.

 

I thought you might be a little off here, Henry Clark had a Ring rating of #9 going into his bout with Sonny.

 

That was in '68, after the tourney was over.

 

Going into the Liston bout Henry had won seven in a row including over Machen and Leotis which gave him birth into the Ring ratings. After the loss to Liston and the WBA tourny his next five bouts went 2-2-1, the wins over lower echelon fighters, the draw with Brian London and losses to Jeff Merritt and Al Jones.

 

Doc, funny,,,yep ol Nat sure did have a preferance for the old timers and Liston was on his forever out list. He did have good things to say about a prime Ali but never considered him better then say Max Schmeling, but then neither did Dempsey.