Top 40 P4P Greatest H2H Fighters Ever - Rough Draft

I wouldn't say Hagler is small in frame, quite. He's small in height, but he makes up for it in strength, chin, reach and breadth. Hagler was a very broad, muscular MW IMO. The payoff is that, I think, he's one of the few punchers that I know of that had a genuine natural accumulative impact with his shots. I mean: Any fighter can technically knock a man out through accumulation if they whack him over and over, but Hagler had such big, powerful arms that his shots were just like getting clubbed with pistons without effort. He reminds me of Liston in a way - everything hurts, even the jab, if not quite in a Julian Jackson, explosive kind of way. To put it simply, he could be fighting on even terms with a durable MW and have worn him out after 4 rounds without even having to fight particularly hard or to sit down on his shots (e.g. Roldan). Everything hurts.

Certainly, I think Hagler could bloody up modern huge MWs like Pavlik punch-for-punch, without even looking at skills, but because of his physical attributes.

At #3.

 

You can tell it is heavily influenced by the opinions on this forum. I like how you dont shaft the HWs who are often dismissed in P4P rankings by some. I feel 21 - 30 is a better set of fighters, more talented fighters than 11 - 20 though

 

Personally I think Chavez and Napoles should both be about 7-8 spots higher, and I would move Hearns back fight, and I would boot Tyson and Frasier to make room for Jofre and Mayweather. But in generally this is a pretty solid list.

 

H2H Manny doesn't belong in the top 20 (P4P also for that matter) and going by your criteria why is Greb ranked 3rd? Their's absolutely no film at all on him. Whitaker and Jones belong much higher on the list, as judging by their prime classes you can hardly name 3-5 men to come closing to touching them. Mayweather belongs in the top 25 for is ability from 130-135 alone, his placing @ 147-154 has NOTHING to with his H2H ability as it's his 4th-5th weight classes. Judging by most of the list your making judgements due most mens statures during the latter half of their careers. Great effort nonetheless but I have some nitpicking to do with this one....

 

Reading through the title again I must apologize as I didn't fully grasp the concept. So, the list is based on EVERY being shrunken and put in the ring against one another, am I correct?

 

Why dont you think he was difficult to outbox? No one ever did it!

He has an almost certain dive loss to Jim Hall, which was avenged brutally. He was out boxed early on by Jim corbett (a man considered the cleverest heavyweight ever at the time) but he ended up wearing corbett out and dare i say, "outboxing him" during the last few rounds. He lost to Jim Jeffries twice (when old) but was outboxing him, it seems, on both occassions although the first occassion was closer (fitz was reportedly in poor condition due to lack of training and underestimating Jeffries). He lost when he was very ancient to Bill Lang, in a fight he was winning on points, before he tired, presumably due to old age against a younger fighter. And of course he was quickly KOd by Johnson in a fight he went into with just one arm.

And i would have thought that if you have freakish power, strategic and ring smarts, you are by definitition a good boxer. His speed isnt slow either, by the way. And on a pound for pound basis his chin and recovery is as good as anyone's also.

And while everyone is quick to point out heavy exploits dont forget the dominance at middle was never seen, before or since. No one has a KO record like him. There is an argument to say (although many titles never existed) he was the best fighter in the world from lightweight to heavyweight. Head to head, he certainly beat the best fighter in the world (at some stage in his career) at each of these weights.

If i can just make a quick point with regards to Fitzsimmons in this regard (rather than stripping weight, if we can blow them all up to heavy). He is as tall as anyone for a middleweight. So, he is the size of Lennox or Wlad. And he probably has a much longer reach if the skinny legs heavyweight upper body is true. He has the KO power of Tyson, probably more because of the P4P sense. His KO record at the weight is certainly a lot better. His chin (as a middle is on par with Alis), it was impregnable. His speed, may be his only achilles heel as there are conflicting reports. All say he is blindingly fast, but it may be that an Ali or Roy Jones Jr was faster. Realistically, i would imagine that he was as fast as Tyson, but that may slow down on a pound for pound sense a little because he was a middle not a heavy. With all these attributes, how do you beat Fitz, on paper, mythically head to head?

Ali is probably quite a bit faster than Robinson, p4p. I am in many ways compassionate to this thinking as i think similar of Ali. Although i do think that many of the old time fighters are grossly underated on the subjective strength of opposition opponent. In a pound for pound sense, Ali is going to be facing a fighter who hits an awful lot harder than him. When i think about it though, it wouldnt be the first time, and it was Alis specialty. I think i will give you the Fair call on this one.

With Fitz, Burns is the only light heavyweight to ever hold the world title. That is worth something on a pound for pound sense. He was blasted by Johnson, but not as badly as Schmelling was beaten by Louis, Frazier by Foreman, etc. IN fact, it may not have even been any worse than Dempsey was beaten by Tunney! He has the pre prime (close) losses, but so do most, like Greb, Langford etc. His win over Jack O Brien was a P4P great win and he was as tough as anyone. Probably not top 10 but worth consideration if nothing else.

Darcy was the Australian great. Died early but was on track and probably exceeded the likes of Ketchell, Sanchez etc.

I am not sure why you are so insistent leaving corbett out. He competed well with bigger fighter Jeffries before his chin failed him (not a problem P4P). He was (as far as we know) as fast as Ali, and P4P probably hit a little harder since his power was similar but he weighed a fair bit less. Not top 10, but again, worthy of consideration.

I like your honesty regards to not knowing enough about some of these guys yet. No one can complain in these circumstances as to be honest every single person's lists are in the same category.

 

Marciano, Dempsey too high.
Chavez, Sugar Ray Leonard too low
Floyd, Holmes put them in list

 

Ali
Louis
Marciano
Dempsey
Holyfield
Tyson
Frazier

6 of these 7 fought exclusively at heavy but i reckon your considering Dempsey and Marciano as Cruisers as well. Some will love that and some will hate it LOL.

Personally i'd have Lennox Lewis above 5 or 6 of these on a heavyweight basis but some shy off him. Not me.

On a H2H heavyweight basis only i reckon Foreman ko's Marciano, Dempsey, Frazier and Tyson while having a decent chance vs Holy and Louis as well.