Larry Holmes... Where does he rank?

Ok, but its not debatable that he's in the top-8, no way is it!

Personally, I do have Holmes in the top-five but I accept your comment about it being debatable. However, Larry Holmes was a top class HW. Only when he retired, once his time had gone, did the majority realize what a great Heavyweight he was.

Holmes had it all, great jab, great chin, decent speed & power, dedication, ring smarts, etc.

 

Disagree. I think the era was fairly strong. There was a new wave of top young talent that came through in the early 1950s(Marciano, Baker, Henry, H Johnson, Valdes, Layne, Lastarza, Walls, Jackson) combined with great veterans Louis, Charles, Walcott, Moore. I don't know what it is with you. You think most heavyweights who fought in the 50s don't look good on film. I wonder if you even bothered to study there skillset. I think it's clear even a over the hill 1950's joe louis with his size, jab, skills, and left hook would have been very tough for any sub 200lb heavyweight contender to beat in any era.

 

Larry rates # 4 on my all time list. He has moved way up recently. I realized I underrated him. Larry accomplished a helluva lot. He also has a lot of attributes which rate him highly h2h. Had Larry been a little less of a cherrypicker from 1983 on and fought Mandatory Greg Page, unified with Pinklon Thomas, and rematched Witherspoon, I'd be inclined to rate Larry in my top 2 all time.

 

Lewis rates 6th.


The difference between larry and lennox...

Both got hit by monster right hands near their prime by Snipes/Shavers and by McCall/Rahman. Difference is one got up and went on to win both fights by knockout, and the other suffered two devastating knockout losses. Holmes rates higher because of this.

 

Granted, many of the fighters that holmes beat were not quality fighters but weaver was no bum, he was a tough, world class fighter who was better than his record indicated.

 

I have him in the top 10 based on a long line of defenses but he did not fight the best of his times or rematch any tough fights, like Weaver,Norton,Witherspoon,Williams. Joe Louis re matched even when he was old. He made fighters like Snipes and Shavers look better than they were. Holmes had one of the best jabs ever and he showed heart and fighting spirit but was susceptible to a good right hand puncher. I think he was carefully guided and avoided too many of the top guys at the time, like Thomas,Dokes,Coetzee,Tate and Weaver, who all held a title during his rein. He never unified and gave up a title not to fight the hot and cold Greg Page.

Although he was old vs Tyson, I feel he would have always had trouble with good right hand punchers and rhythm breakers such as Tyson and Spinks

His best wins were over Cooney and the oft beaten Shavers

 

Just about everybody agrees on Spoon. However, I believe Mr. Snipes won the match which got Tim his shot at Holmes, by out hustling Witherspoon on the inside. Nobody talks about a Holmes-Snipes rematch, but Renaldo may well have been entitled to one. (Of course Renaldo would have been badly beaten up by Larry in a return go, and I think Holmes probably still wanted to make him pay for that knockdown.)

Weaver was a sub par performance by Holmes, but it was also a legitimately decisive stoppage win. Granted, Hercules did far better than expected, but that's not the same as a controversial win, and there was no controversy whatsoever about whether or not Holmes-Weaver I should have been stopped.

Norton was expected to rematch Holmes, but got upset by Shavers, so Earnie got the rematch. Louis would have likewise granted a rematch to Farr (which he is never criticized for failing to do), but Tommy had inopportune losses following his challenge of Joe, just as Kenny did. They both failed to earn a second shot.

Williams was his final match prior to Michael Spinks, and thus should never be cited when criticizing Holmes on rematch issues. Perhaps it could be argued that Carl should have gotten the first shot at Michael, instead of Larry getting an immediate return, but Holmes was certainly better business for the younger Spinks brother. (Personally, I would have liked to see Michael defend against Leon.)

It wasn't long before Weaver ambushed Williams, then it was over four years before Carl legitimately earned another title shot.

Yeah, but Holmes re-matched Bonecrusher and Weaver when he was way older. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

As those were title challenges, each ought to be expected to be at their very best. They both had a single shining moment, one knockdown punch, Shavers in a total of 23 rounds, Snipes in a total of 11. Aside from those knockdowns, these were all very one sided shellackings.

Tate probably would have found himself in a unification had he finished the job with Weaver. Holmes and Dokes were friends, as Frazier and Norton were, and Mustafa Muhammad and Saad Muhammad wound up being as Muslim brothers. They were never going to fight. Needles Thomas and Coetzee are more valid cases, especially Pinko.

While I agree he should have taken on Page, virtually everybody (including Weaver) admitted he was the number one heavyweight after Weaver-Tate.

He has candidly admitted this about Tyson, but I think rustiness was more of a factor when they did fight, and Mike did have some trouble finishing him off. Holmes had moments which convince me that he would have taken a peak for peak showdown.

Concerning rhythm breaking and right handed punching, I've expressed the opinion more than once that Max Baer was the historical champion most likely to spring an upset win over Larry. Stylistically though, Holmes, like Ali and Louis, was well suited to coping with a wide variety of styles, with varying degrees of difficulty. His weaknesses were not glaring to the degree that Norton's were against aggressive power sluggers. (Norton-Mercado or Norton-Lyle would have been interesting. Ken was fortunate there were not many of that ilk during his prime.)

His own assessment points to Shavers I and Cooney. My personal preferences in addition to these is for Cobb, Ocasio and Leon Spinks (a match which many predicted Leon would win after the way he stopped the huge and deadly punching Mercado).

Summing up, I think objections to his failure to match Thomas, Page and Coetzee, particularly Thomas, are the most valid omissions on his record. Regarding re-matches, Witherspoon was the only challenger competitive enough to warrant one within the time Larry had left as champion. (I'll also say that if the title changed hands from Holmes to Witherspoon on a 12 round decision that I might have stopped following boxing then and there, and was relieved that it ultimately did pass from Larry over the championship distance. **** the WBC for introducing the pussified 12 round limit. At least Spoon finally became a WBA titlist when their standard was still 15 rounds.)

 

rocky marciano

 

Have Holmes and Lewis switch places at the moment those punches connect. Does prime Holmes get up to defeat Rahman and McCall (and an aged Larry nearly did beat Oliver in reality right after McCall upset Lennox), while Lewis gets knocked out by Shavers and Snipes? (Personally, I believe Lennox would have been down for the count both times, while Rahman, and especially McCall, would've **** bricks when Holmes got up, just as Shavers did after landing what Earnie has described as the hardest punch of his career.)

 

Top5, I have him at #3 myself.

 

Head-to-head at heavyweight, it's basically a three way tie between Ali, Louis and Holmes.

Quibbling over the exact order is stupid. Just call it a three way tie, as you can barely slip a sheet of paper in between them, while the trio are reams beyond 4, 5, etc.