'19 Dempsey vs. '52 Marciano.... Take it or leave it?

MRBILL ,No direspect,but I too have been observing boxing a LONG time, since the 1940s in fact...And it is a MUCH more accurate Assessment of
the question of "who would win between Dempsey and Marciano ", when
people who were polled SAW Demposey and Marciano live in their primes,
as was in 1956...Not years after when nostalgia or personal favorites determine the younger generation 's choice and not the experts who
watched the careers of both Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano...
Example I saw Sugar Ray Robinson in his prime as a welterweight,
and what I SAW, gives me as an observer,a better perspective on his merits today than young people who have nbever been fortuanate to see him...And so with the vast consensus who WATCHED a prime Dempsey and Marciano many times, choosing Dempsey over Marciano ...As do I...

 

1960's, pre Ali beating Foreman.

Most writers of the day did say he would lose to Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Jeff, Corbett, Fitz, and Baer and who ever else came to there minds. Did it mean they were right??

Hell I have the ring mag from the 60's of Clay vs the greats, and it had him loseing to dang near all of em.

Of couse beating Foreman change that in the 1970's. But still in the 60's most people didnt think Ali could beat the heavyweights of the past.

 

Again 1976, Ali beat Foreman and Frazier. And thus had "Street" cred so to speak.

The thoughts were not the same in the 1960's. Look no futher than the 1969 Marciano Ali computer fight or even Ali loseing to Jeff I belive in the first round.

 

Of the Tourment, not the fight.

 

apollack, would love to hear you expand on this.

Myself, I favor Marciano by the width of a finger-nail shaving ...

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Is the bobbing Marciano of '51/'52 the best to fight Dempsey? or would the shift-around-in-a-crouch Marciano of a couple years later be even better?

 

Agree.

Based on what does Dempsey hit as hard as Marciano?
Rocky has:
-A higher KO percentage overall
-A higher KO percentage against quality opponents
-A higher KO percentage against Hall-of-Famers
-More one-punch knockouts against quality opponents

What makes you say that? Dempsey has a first-round stoppage and has been knocked down five times during his career (not counting the 7 times a mediocre middleweight had him down early in Dempsey's career).

Marciano has only visited the canvas twice, against better opponents.

What do you make of the fact that Marciano has better stamina?

Hell yeah! :bbb

 

A little misleading Chris.

Dempsey fought most of his toughest opponents such as Sharkey and Tunney when he was past his prime. Marciano fought Louis, Charles, Walcott and Moore when he was the young man and they were past their prime.

You nor I have any clue which man has more one punch KO's , just one punch KO's on film. There is no way to verify Dempsey's so that is not a solid point

Even Rocky fans and Rocky historians like author Sullivan have said his first thrity five opponents were really canon fodder. Out of the remaining 14 , really six guys were legit ests of varying degrees: Layne, LaStarza, Louis, Walcott, Charles and Moore. There is no disputing that Louis, Walcott, Charles and Moore were all past their best. I just don't see Rocky's level of opposition matching the diversity, talent or youth of Dempseys.

AS far as chins go, both were tough as nails. Dempsey may have gone down more and appears to have definately been stopped once. However Dempsey had a much tougher road than Rocky. Rocky had solid management building him up through the ranks. Dempsey picked up fights when ever he could with matches made by himself or the manager of the minute, often not properly feed let alone trained, taking whatever matches he could. I feel the same about their stamina. Both were terrific.

Not to pick arguments, just serious question, who was the toughest guy Rocky KO'ed as far as abilioty to take a punch ? Willard was a older and inactive but he was inshape for the fight in Toledo and had an iron chin. To me legless Joe Louis nor even a prime Louis, Charles, Walcott nor Moore were iron chinned guys ...

Who was the toughest puncher Rocker faced and who had the best chin that Rocky KO'ed ?

 

I think dempsey is a smarter boxer, and hits just as hard, or harder. Rocky's chin is a little better, but i think the mauler has this one.

The highest one round KO record in the Heavyweight division.

 

This about sums it up 4 me.

 

Marciano was 33 when he knocked out Archie Moore in his last fight. Dempsey was 31 when Tunney completely dominated him. Yes, Dempsey was inactive for 3 years, so what? If anything, that counts against his legacy.

Yes, we do. We see that Marciano's stoppage are often by one or two punches and that's it, the opponent is OUT.

In all of Dempsey's fights, he has to knock them down several times. Not all of Dempsey's fights are on film, but neither are Marciano's.

Bottomline is that in the collection that we do have, Dempsey needs several knockdowns to finish his opponents, Marciano does not.

Sure, but are you going to tell me Dempsey's first 30-40 opponents were heroes?

Many of them were hall-of-famers and they're absolutely better than the bunch that Dempsey beat.

Particularly your last statement is remarkable. Dempsey's opponents barely learned how to box - gloved. Dempsey was ahead of his time. The likes of Gibbons, Fulton, Miske, Carpentier, old fat Willard and Firpo would not stand much chance against much more advanced fighters in Walcott, Charles, Moore, Louis (even the old one), Layne and LaStarza.

Dempsey's first round knock-out loss came in his prime, a year before he showed his peak performance against Willard. How can you discount that by "he had a tougher road?" I already conceded that we forget about the 7 knockdowns he suffered against a mediocre middleweight.

When did Dempsey prove his stamina? He had nothing left after a mere 10 rounds with Tunney. He threw only 20 punches a round against Gibbons during the later stages of the fight. Compare that to Marciano who threw 70+ punches a round consistently, throughout 15 rounds. Sorry but there's no comparison here. The only way for Dempsey to win is within the first 5 rounds. After that, his chances quickly converge to zero.

I would say Joe Louis. He had only been stopped once despite fighting 30 top10 ranked contenders and even on that occasion, it took Schmeling 12 rounds of pummeling him. He proved his chin against guys like the Baer brothers, Carnera, Godoy, Charles (look how he destroyed Satterfield), etc.

As for Willard's iron chin: when did he ever survive a big hitter that was a decent fighter? Firpo stopped him. Dempsey stopped him. Sure, he was old for those bouts, but when did he prove the opposite? Who Joe Cox (who?) stopped him? A guy like Rex Layne would look equally impressive against the guys Willard fought. If not more so. Willard was a horrible boxer, but came along at the right time. If he fought under normal 15 round rules, he would've never been champ and he would've been just another Jack Johnson victim, no more..

Give Marciano punching bags like Willard and Firpo and I guarantee you'll see KO's just the same.

 

IF Rocky can survive the first few rounds I would pick him to win.. But I just think Dempsey is too powerful for rocky and forces the ref to stop the fight.

 

I often read about Rocky's exceptional stamina. The first Charles fight is the example ... how Rocky kept throwing endless punches that night. Interesting how on a 1500 punch night Rocky never put Charles down in the fight. Was he 0 for 1500 ? Maybe he just landed jabs ? No, that can't be since Rocky was known to wind up for the kill with every shot, one of his claims to fame .. something just does not add up. How many times did he hit Walcott in the first fight? How many times did he hit LaStarza, Moore or Cockell ? How many times did he hit 35 year old punching bag Lee Savold ? Chris, your argument does not hold up. Far more often than not Rocky wore guys down with an accumulation of shots.

As far as benefitting from coming along at the right time, I won't even go there except to ask what all time great heavyweight champion had his four biggest wins against men averaging 37 years of age? You want to talk numbers, deal with that one. It underpins his entire legacy.