My Dad's Top 10 Heavyweights

1. "resume/legacy"

These are factual matters which can be evaluated and discussed on the basis of real happenings.

2. "head to head"

These are opinions. Nothing more.


One thing about this discussion I found interesting is that the side which relies on opinion (someone who was at ringside to see Dempsey believes Dempsey ko's Louis) accuses the side relying on resume (Louis was champion longer, made more defenses, defended against more good men, had the better overall record) of arrogance!

A lot of "experts" were at ringside for Sonny Liston and the then Cassius Clay fights prior to the two being matched in 1964. Liston was the overwhelming favorite. The experts were wrong. They often are. I don't know why I should assume their opinions are automatically correct about Dempsey and Louis.

 

True not all favorites win...But in horse racing the amount of money betted on a horse determines the odds...I believe in boxing, that a large consensus picking one fighter over another fighter by boxing writers, who
observed both in the ring, ala Dempsey and Louis,would be more often correct in their choice,than NOT...I,who have not heard Enrico Caruso
sing in person, aside from bad recordings, take the word of the past
music experts, in deeming him the greatest tenor in history, because I have no other choice but to take the words of people who have...
So with Dempsey and my favorite heavyweight Joe Louis...And if I
am proven wrong ,I would be elated with a wonderful man and fighter
Joe Louis....

 

Joe Louis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack Dempsey

 

Nice to see his perspective on the heavys, thanks for posting

I particularly like my placing!!

 

1. Singing-bad analogy as whether a person sings well is totally a matter of personal standards.

2. I dispute that there is any strong EVIDENCE that there was a LARGE consensus that Dempsey would defeat Louis. Who voted in the 1950 poll? Can you name those 300 sportswriters? How many of them had seen Dempsey and how often? How many had seen Louis and how often? I have also read they were asked p4p. Did Dempsey being lighter help him in the poll? Doesn't matter for heavyweight boxing.

3. Odds in fights are quite often wrong, especially if we discount the "out" fights such as Louis against Paycheck or the like.

For example, the odds were wrong for Patterson-Moore. They were wrong again two of three for Patterson and Johansson. They were wrong for both Liston-Ali fights. They were wrong for Foreman-Frazier and for Ali-Foreman. It is not unusual for the odds to be wrong when top fighters of the era meet. Sure, the odds are generally right for a champion fighting a weak challenger, such as Patterson against McNeeley or Ali against London. When top men meet, the odds are much more shaky. It does not follow that because "experts" can figure out that Dempsey will beat Pelkey or Louis will beat Roper, they also are gospel about what would happen if Dempsey and Louis met.

Here's a few other historical picks.

Sullivan over Corbett.
Corbett over Fitz.
Fitz over Jeffries.
Burns over Johnson.
Jeffries over Johnson.
Johnson over Willard.
Willard over Dempsey.
Dempsey over Tunney.
Baer over Braddock.

I don't see that record as indicating these types of "experts" could be certain of Dempsey-Louis.

 

I can't recall, but didn't the majority of writers pick Gerry Cooney to stop Larry Holmes in 1982? I know that I did NOT!

Some of them matches listed above stem from racial agenda; not well thought out planning.......

MR.BILL

 

"Some of them matches listed above stem from racial agenda"

You are certain there was no "racial agenda" in a vote between Dempsey and Louis in 1950?

 

You are now disputing the intentions and backgrounds of the writers who voted in 1950 picking Jack Dempsey as the best fighter in the first half century...They were famous great writers who no one in 1950 denied their
qualifications, until you now bring up sixty years later...This is now something that is new to this debate and it shows to me now clearly,had the Press voted by a big majority,that Joe Louis was the greatest fighter
from 1900-1950, not a peep would come from you now, questioning the veracity of the boxing experts in 1950...I at least with not an iota to gain
in this debate say Joe Louis ,my boyhood hero as a boy was at least as GREAT as Jack Dempsey in their primes..I just happen to think that fights
between equal great fighters are a matter of STYLES,and this is why i THINK [not I'm sure} Dempsey had the style to beat Louis...And if the Poll in 1950 picked the Brown Bomber instead of Dempsey, I would not say to you ,sixty years later, "what is the background of the writers "...I'll say this one more time with respect to you and others...You and I have never seen the Prime Dempsey aside from the Willard hand cranked film...
Therefore I must take the opinions of famous writers of the time who saw all the great fighters from Corbett to past Louis,and raved about the
greatness of Dempsey at his peak,with much more regard than todays naysayers...They saw the product, we today have not....

 

burt you are are an ignorant, arrogant, condescending fool

 

Thank you, As long as I'm right...

 

Why because you dont agree with him?
Theres no need to be rude or ignorant to fellow members.:nono

 

Yes and no...... Louis had some haters in 1950 based outta race, but overall, I think Louis won over the hearts of the average man--black or white just because he was champ so long and served his country in the Army..... Even in trying times of '50, Louis had more fans than haters....... IMO!

The stigma of Dempsey being a WW1 dodger hanged over his head for yrs after the fact.....

All in all, I gotta guess that Louis won the '50 poll over Dempsey.....:huh

MR.BILL

 

Joe Louis from his prime to the 1950s wasc the MOST BELOVED fighter in America.Period. He transcended race...Why is it so hard to believe the Poll taking in 1950 ? I am perplexed that the very name of Dempsey today from some ESB posters,conjures up so much hatred...IF perchance the 1950 poll chose Jack Johnson [Nat Fleischers choice]or Joe Louis over
Jack Dempsey, I woulkd side with the boxing experts who SAW them
fight...Why the hell would I know more today, than the majority of
experienced writers who saw them fight in their primes...It is not arogance
on my part, it is called logic and fairness...It is not for me to overlook
the past, but to learn from it....Keep punching...

 

The choice is not between Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis. That is a no brainer in favor of Joe Louis. The debate is who is greater between Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali. Jack Dempsey does not compare to Muhammad Ali. Ali beat the best contenders of 2 different decades. Dempsey did not even fight the two best heavyweights of his own era.