Behold your false god, Roberto Duran

So duranimal, redrooster and posters on General are your sources for this? You might as well conduct an opinion survey at a lunatic asylum.

On the contrary: People come on here refusing to admit that Duran was past-prime for those losses or disadvantaged because he was fighting at a higher weight - including "respectable" posters like ChrisPontius - and more seem to buy into that than do into the Duran excuses, which are generally confined to nutters.

There's been such re-revisionism about Duran on here that things have IMO swung the other way, and now even talking about the man having a prime and a post-prime career, or talking about the man having better weights and worse weights, becomes anathema.

 

the question is does his wins at lightweight vs. a mediocre bunch where he was so much better make him top 5 ATG? I think making him top 5 ATG is ridiculous.

 

He only fought sporadically. Duran was fighting constantly, which allows for more inconsistency IMO.

 

I think that you might have a point there.

Duran is the king of kings.

 

Do you mean like the Duran - Hearns Ko, Hearns was a much bigger man and one of the greatest punches of all time against Leonard's ko at the hands of the smaller, feather fisted Macho Man?

 

I wonder if ripcity still thinks Mayweather has more heart than Duran post-shameless duck of Pacquiao?

:rofl

 

It's got nothing to do with a deadline or a contract. It's to do with the fact that Pacquiao has agreed to all of Mayweather's entirely arbitrary demands and the fact that this fight has to get made, but all Mayweather wants to do is run away. Pathetic.

No we haven't, since Mayweather has never faced anything like the challenges and adversity Duran has. Here is his first opportunity to get a taster of it, and he decides to take another holiday. Even more pathetic.

 

You mean like it is for some when it comes to Ali? Posters that refuse to see the simple fact that 3,5 years of inactivity robbed him of his prime, like it would any athlete? Refuse to see it even though his own trainer along with opponents and many more has said as much? You mean that kind of blatant ignorance?

 

Listen you pathetic feeble minded fool as i give you a simple equation that even a half-brain like you should be able to solve.

Fighter (A) thinks he can win the fight & wants to fight!

Fighter (B) is'nt so sure that he can win the fight & who's whereabouts are now unknown!

Have no fear for your unscrupulous sweetheart as he'll be back in a year or two to take on such risky carear defining fights with Tim Bradley & Mathew Hatton & ending with the grand finale with a Rick Hatton re-match.........easy $$$$$$$$$$$$$ sucked out of mugs like you.

Ducked Margo/Cotto/Williams/DLH re-match & now fled the scene once his bluff was called by Pacquiao......Mayweather is a chalatan at best:smoke

 

No, because I can point out to you on film where there is a decline in Duran, in various precise respects, as well as with other facts. There is no evidence on film for a substantial decline in Ali's ability from '67-70, as I have pointed out to you before (not least because he never fought). Instead, you resort to vague statements about how some mickey mouse analyst said he thought Ali didn't look the same (many of which were made after the hunt for excuses post-FOTC, to try and rob Frazier of the credit he deserved), or about how "it's just obvious" that he would have declined sharply during a lay-off.

I have never denied that Ali declined considerably from FOTC to '72. That is an absolute fact, which I am consistent about, and you can check my posting history if you don't believe me.

 

it's actually funny imo

"I'm not really thinking about boxing right now...just enjoying my vacation.."

and the whole boxing world is screaming for his blood, people boo him when he comes on the jumbotron at the staples center

 

For most it's very much there on film that his speed and workrate/stamina wasn't the same against Quarry, Bonavena and Frazier as it was before.

Comparing FOTC to Chuvalo I is enlightening here. He took on the Chuvalo fight with three weeks notice, had a hurt arm in training and consequently came in there in probably his worst shape (and highest weight) before the exile. Still he moved and punched consequently for 15 rds without showing very much weariness.

Frazier put on a faster pressure than Chuvalo, but against him Ali had prepared much, much better. Yet the commentators notice signs of tiredness already in the second round and after five rounds he is clearly very tired, almost spent.

As I said, it was an exetremely fast paced fight, but an Ali in worse shape against Chuvalo showed less signs of being tired after 15 rounds than he did after 5 rounds in FOTC.

So D'Amato is a "mickey mouse analyst"? He said it before FOTC and Dundee agreed with him.

You seriously believe that any of today's top athletes would be the same after a 3,5 year lay-off? You don't think Tyson or Dempsey lost anything during their periods of inacitivity?

In fact, Tyson recently stated in an interview that it was ludicrous to believe he could beat someone like Holyfield after a 3 year lay-off.

 

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Well, Ali could have thrown 100 punches a round on a bag no problem either side of the lay-off. What really takes it out of you in fighting is having to constantly move, concentrate, adjust to your opponent etc. Frazier drove Ali much harder, pressured quicker, demanded much more from him as a puncher because of his defensive abilities, trapped him on the ropes more and damaged him more. All that explains the difficulties Ali had as well as anything IMO.

I never knew that, not that it changes much. When we had this discussion before people were talking about random commentators claiming it IIRC.

Well, it depends on the circumstances. If Ali took a layoff when he was 18 for three years, and then got back in the gym, after a few years I'd imagine he wouldn't have been adversely affected. On the other hand, 3-year layoff when he was 28 would probably have had severe affects. The fact is that we don't know how much it really affected him; the burden of proof is on those who claim he was past-it vs. Frazier and that '67 Ali would have licked him (which is usually the inspiration for this discussion). That is my main point.