Behold your false god, Roberto Duran

Yeah, (t)he(y) didn't say that at the time did (t)he(y)? All these excuses come post-hoc. Same thing for Ali.

What about Holyfield: On the worse side of 3 shockingly brutal wars with Bowe, coming off several poor performances and a potentially dehabilitating disease. And Tyson's the one that's getting the apology here? He was outclassed that night.

 

I personally make no excuses for Tyson, I agree that Holyfield also was past it. Just wanted to point out what he said about his inactivity, which most agrees with. Just as it's not controversial to say that Dempsey (or any other athlete) lost ability due to inactivity.

I also agree that Duran wasn't quite the same against Benitez (who incidentally outboxed Duran despite nearing the end of the road himself), but you're not convincing when calling bias on those that won't make allowances for Duran's diminished ablilities at this stage while you yourself refuse to make any for Ali's in FOTC.

 

That is because, as I stated quite clearly earlier, there is evidence on film of Duran's decline, where there is IMO none (and at best very little) for Ali.

 

Ok. As I stated quite clearly eearlier - I (and many others) disagree with you here. And if you're going to discard us as Ali apologist you have to be prepared to be discarded as a Duran apologist yourself by those who doesn't see any signs of Duran's decline (which really aren't more visible than Ali's). It's not complicated.

 

Watch Benitez land a long lead right hand which hits Duran clean here.

0:50

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4Zt8cdqCMY[/ame]

Now watch how easily Duran slips Leonard's punches in the first 2 minutes here:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT1hknlqzIo[/ame]

That alone is a more perceptible decline than anything about Ali.

 

It aint polite to waste moonlight on a cold shoulder.

 

A well prepared Ali after 5 rds in 1971 (from 6:10):

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF-kRDvR6RY&feature=related[/ame]


A poorly prepared Ali in 1966 after 14 rds (from 04:45):

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2ut_2v4npU&feature=related[/ame]


I think this speaks clearly enough of the decline of his previously absolutely outstanding workrate and stamina.

 

I've already dealt with that. Frazier was a much better fighter than Chuvalo.

(In fact: Leonard was a much better fighter than Benitez, and his jab was certainly better than Benitez lead right. So that works for me.)

 

Yes. But after 14 rds a poorly prepared Ali was in much better shape in 1966 in his toughest fight yet than a well prepared Ali was after 5 rds in 1971. Frazier put on much faster pressure than Chuvalo, but the difference wasn't huge enough to explain this discrepancy. Not even close to that huge.

 

What's the debate here. Do you think Ali was just as good in '71 as he was in '66, Itrymariti?

 

I don't think we can say. I certainly don't think there's enough evidence to pick prime Ali over FOTC Frazier.

 

That's a reasonable opinion. But you could well say the same about Duran and Benitez.

 

Nah. SSJ/Montreal Duran beats '71 and '66 Ali.

 

Except opponents who fought him before and after the lay off who said he wasn't quite as good

 

They're not comparable situations IMO, although it wouldn't be unreasonable to pick Benitez over Duran for other reasons. As I've already stated, there was a clear decline in Duran that there was not with Ali.