Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by bman100, Jul 19, 2010.


Page 3 of 6
  1. techks

    techks ATG list Killah! Full Member

    19,779
    701
    Dec 6, 2009
    I don't get too much into clarifying what's ducking and what's not either lol.
     
    techks, Jul 20, 2010
    techks, Jul 20, 2010
    #31
  2. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    271
    Jul 22, 2004
    Outside of the thinking 'he kicked my ass so he must be bad ass' I wonder how much of Burley Old Archie actually saw, were Burleys fights commonly available for TV viewing? Did Archie watch many of Burley's fights ringside
     
    PowerPuncher, Jul 20, 2010
    PowerPuncher, Jul 20, 2010
    #32
  3. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    271
    Jul 22, 2004
    McGrain you should know the details of Burley trying to make a fight with Robinson. Any info?
     
    PowerPuncher, Jul 20, 2010
    PowerPuncher, Jul 20, 2010
    #33
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,405
    48,800
    Mar 21, 2007
    :lol: you've asked me this about three times bro.


    A brief overview would be Burley's people offering Robinson's people a then careers-best payday. This was towards the end of 45 or the beginning of 46. There is a story that the price shot up upon Burley's beating Smith. Robinson is supposed to have accepted much much smaller purses going forwards.

    There is a second story that Burley was approached to fight a trilogy with Sugar, but that he had to ditch the first one. The source is Otty via Burley. I don't think Otty would flat out lie and I like Burley as a witness, but it's one of those stories, isn't it? If it was true once, you can't prove it now.

    There were other bits and bobs, but these two stories are the most common.
     
    McGrain, Jul 20, 2010
    McGrain, Jul 20, 2010
    #34
  5. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

    28,075
    54
    Oct 15, 2007
    Who wouldn't he have success against? You see what i mean though, he's one of the best to ever do it and he was still beaten twice, ultimately.
     
    teeto, Jul 20, 2010
    teeto, Jul 20, 2010
    #35
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,405
    48,800
    Mar 21, 2007
    Yeah, in very very close fights though. What I'm saying is that Burley is faster, has a longer reach, hit harder and was probably around equal in punch-resistance. Might he be slightly behind KG in terms of pure craft? Maybe, but I don't think by much. Not a bad mix that, for pursuing some version of the KG plan.
     
    McGrain, Jul 20, 2010
    McGrain, Jul 20, 2010
    #36
  7. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

    28,075
    54
    Oct 15, 2007
    From what i can make out though, Gavilan is much better at putting punches together and attacking relentlessly. Robinson was boxing for some periods in his bouts with Gavilan (i'm sure he virtually said '**** this i'm boxing this guy from now on), it's possible Gavilan had success by virtue of that, seen as though he did it a lot on film. That's not Burley's style. I'm just of the opinion you don't counter an attack like that en route to a w on your record, maybe the best like Burley etc would have moderate success though, they are the best at it after all.
     
    teeto, Jul 20, 2010
    teeto, Jul 20, 2010
    #37
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,405
    48,800
    Mar 21, 2007
    Based upon what we have on film, that's unquestionably true, and even if we're prepared to stretch accounts of some of Burley's swarming attacks (against McQuillan, Moore and Charles for example) to be included in a breakdown, you certainly can't credit him with skill in this department to match KG's. But Robinson did talk about his inability to get going against Kid, because of his counter-punching abilities and trapping - I think this proves that there is more than one way to shut down Robinson's offence to some degree. Burley was a specialist in this department and has a pretty serious reach advantage.
     
    McGrain, Jul 20, 2010
    McGrain, Jul 20, 2010
    #38
  9. Nemesis

    Nemesis Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,650
    13
    Dec 9, 2005
    blatantly ducked is harsh.

    There was such a small window of opportunity to call any of the those opponents being 'ducked'.

    He fought Lamotta because it was a money fight (thus, it being worth it for 147 SRR to take the leap and fight a MW), fighting some of these guys was a poor risk/reward ratio.
     
    Nemesis, Jul 20, 2010
    Nemesis, Jul 20, 2010
    #39
  10. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

    28,075
    54
    Oct 15, 2007
    I'll take your word for it McGrain, from what i remember though Robinson was just saying that he had a hard time stopping Gavilan because of his chin, not that he had a hard time getting going. My memory might be hazey though
     
    teeto, Jul 20, 2010
    teeto, Jul 20, 2010
    #40
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,405
    48,800
    Mar 21, 2007
    Now i've said it, I can't remember where I got it either. I do remember a snippet of a report (possibly on Boxrec) describing Gavilan's performance being one that made Robinson reluctant to take chances.

    This is basically what I am talking about. Counter-punches making it difficult for Robinson to open up. This is where Burley absolutely excelled, and he is a puncher (if perhaps not a finisher).
     
    McGrain, Jul 20, 2010
    McGrain, Jul 20, 2010
    #41
  12. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

    28,075
    54
    Oct 15, 2007
    Yeah, i understand you fully. I just don't agree that that style of boxing brings ultimate success against Robinson. I don't think Robinson would shut him out or anything like that, but i just favour him on the styles match-up much more so than i do Burley, that's all.
     
    teeto, Jul 20, 2010
    teeto, Jul 20, 2010
    #42
  13. john garfield

    john garfield Boxing Junkie Full Member

    11,826
    102
    Aug 5, 2004
    Scrolling on all your posts -- guys of different ages, 'n the staggering research you've done -- all I can think of is: proud to be in a community that loves boxing as much as I do.
     
    john garfield, Jul 20, 2010
    john garfield, Jul 20, 2010
    #43
  14. Meast

    Meast New Member Full Member

    0
    13
    Dec 6, 2008
    What do you make of the stories of SRR carrying Gavilan in their first bout so he would get a rematch? He seemed to be more successful in their second bout which does make you think, or maybe he just worked out Gavilan's style?
     
    Meast, Jul 20, 2010
    Meast, Jul 20, 2010
    #44
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

    37,077
    3,747
    Sep 14, 2005
    John,

    What did you think of the Murders Row? Just how great were they?
     
    SuzieQ49, Jul 20, 2010
    SuzieQ49, Jul 20, 2010
    #45
Page 3 of 6