Harry Greb vs Roy Jones Jr.

In Greb's day there were three two four times professional fighters, many fighting 100 to 200 0r more fights a year...I am talking about pros receiving a purse and not smokers or amateur fights...Except for the larger purses heavyweights usually got, they had to fight OFTEN to earn a living
as they had no home relief, no welfare checks, no handouts to fall back on...How on earth can these fighters of Greb's time and before, who fought so often, against a vastly amount of more competitive fighters,and great full time boxing trainers, not be better than todays fighters, who fight a few times a year,against similar opponents ? Of course there are exceptions in our era, who were they had fought in the talent rich 1920s
would have been even better than they are today.
Yes as the old adage says ,"practice makes perfect ", and it applies to
boxing as well...

 

Correction--I meant 100 to 200 or more fights a career !!!

 

Then how does that explain the plethora of supposedly well trained athletes that fight today at a slower pace over 10 and 12 rounds than guys like Gans, Nelson, Britt, Wolgast etc were fighting over 40??? If you think fights today are fought at a faster pace than even the 20 round fights of the past then you havent been watching many of the older fights. Look at DLH-Trinidad that was fought at a pretty tepid pace and DLH still faded in the last four rounds. The examples of just such an occurance are legion and thats undeniable. Its one of the reasons why boxing has become so unpopular. The sport is a let down more often than not. The 80s heavyweights get a bad rap for being out of shape but those guys look like adonis' compared to Eddie Chambers, Chris Arreola, David Tua, Sam Peter etc. Hell, could the Klitchkos (who are always vaunted as being in great shape) go 25 rounds under blazing lights like Jeffries and Sharkey? Vitali was gassed after six with Lennox Lewis who himself was never one to be famous for his stamina. This argument is ridiculous. Anyone who thinks that today's fighters are tougher, or even better than those of the past are the same people who think speed and hard punches were invented at the same time color tv and slow motion instant replays were invented.

Some keep talking about advancements and evolution in the sport or athletes or training. I still say bull****. The number one major advancement in sports which has led to a drastic increase in performance is the use of illegal or banned PEDs. I would bet my next ten years pay on the fact, a fact I know well, that PEDs are FAR FAR FAR more pervasive in ALL SPORTS than most people realize. When records that stood for 30 or 40 or more years fall, and then fall again, and again, and again within a few short years that isnt evolution, that isnt the science of training, thats something fishy. Period. I dont care if you sleep right, eat perfectly designed designer meals, take your vitamins, and train in state of the art facilities using state of the art training methods, there is only so much a human body can do. Look at basketball players 20 or 30 years ago and look at them now. Bodybuilders. Look at baseball players over the same period. Big fat asses and thighs, huge forearms, and jaw muscles you dont get from chewing tobacco, you can go on and on with the examples but the facts are the facts and if people werent so stupid or so willingly blind they would see that those old records were won legitimately and modern athletes are simply taking a much easier route. Yes easier. Steroid freaks will tell you that you still have to put in hard work which is true BUT anyone who tells you that PEDs arent a miracle drug is lying. Studies show that you can lay on a couch and do nothing and steroids or similar drugs can actually increase your muscle mass, strength, reduce fat, and generally increase your performance when measured against placebos. Thats the science that has dramatically changed. Plain and simple because a muscle is a muscle and the basic way it works and how you build it, or make it stronger, or make it able to endure more punishment has not changed.

 

This is a real bugbear with me. Guys who won the sprints a few decades ago clocked times that wouldn't get them in the final nowadays... That's got to tell you what's going on.

When people talk about sports science I just take it they mean PED's (and whether they're legal or not it makes no difference).

I agree, PEDs are rife in most sports where big money is at stake. People don't want to accept it but it's so obviously true.

 

What's really suspicious is that the 100 and 200 meters results have "improved" drastically. However, the 400 is about the same. And the 800 has, if anything, regressed from the eras of Coe/Cruz/Kipketer to today.

This makes me highly suspicious of the short sprints as basis for any proof of natural progression.

 

we only have a few seconds of greb "sparring" with "philly" jim o'brien to judge him on but his style, from what we've heard, would be disaster vs a prime jones. jones way too big a fast for greb.

 

Fighters of today on average fight at a more frantic faster pace than fighters of yesterday. I don't think Delahoya did fade against Tito, I think he ran because he thought it was in the bank and didnt want to risk engaging, you can't bounce on your tip toes if you're tired/faded

For the most part you're comparing ATG well conditioned fighters from yesteryear with sub standard poorly conditioned fighters of today. Unfair examples. I could argue Pacquaio/Mayweather/WIlliams are 3 of the best conditioned boxers in history. Even someone like Ricky Hatton fought at a frantic pace in his earlier days, same with Calzaghe. None of those fighters would have a problem competing in the 40round era

As for the Klits not having great stamina, I've heard some insane training feats, something like 2:00 800m intervals (not sure I believe that 1). But how many HWs in history are throwing 90-100punches a round?

1 thing you aren't giving credit to is the size/strength of modern HWs, if nothing else they are bigger/stronger than anytime in history perhaps barring the 90s

On the topic of speed, practically all the fastest fighters in history have come in the last 30 years, barring perhaps Ali. Thats something we can see as an improvement

Yes you are right PEDs are common today, but PEDs alone don't get records and even measurable sports of the 70s-60s where PEDs just weren't around saw improvements in records

However having said all that I think there is a case boxing generally speaking is less popular with a than at its peak, there are maybe less quality trainers. However pre 40s I'd say the sport was technically still developing

 

You don't think PEDs help middle distance running? Because they do.

5-10k have progressed to epic proportions aswell

 

You mean like you thought 100fight Chavez, would beat 30fight Whitaker but he ended up getting outboxed? Journeyman Peter Buckley has 300 fights, lost nearly all of them. You're also discounting the 100s of amateur fights fought at the world class level by modern fighters, 10000s of rounds of sparring, etc etc.

Again I think a vast number of fighters in Grebs day would be semi-pro if Walcott/Bradock were, it only makes sense

 

Welcome to fantasy world !

 

Yes, PED's help distance events, but no so much the long sprints/middle distances from 400 to 1500 meters. There was a study out of Norway on this. I forget the medical reasons but I think it had something to do with not finding substances to enhance various anaerobic metabolisms that occur between 40 seconds and 4 minutes of exertion. It is pretty shocking how the results in those events 400- 1500 have stayed static while others have made monumental leaps. I'll try to track down that study when I have time.

 

Wolgast-Nelson is another example of a fight we have film on where it can be clearly seen that the old timers threw a lot of leather, not just one punch and a clinch. These guys went at it hammer and tongs for 40 rounds.

 

Good point SB ... welcome to the Wild West !

 

Jones wins based on modern fighting techniques, amazing athleticism, amazing reflexes, amazing speed (hands and feet) etc etc.

Jones in his prime would have certainly given any fighter in history major difficulties.

 

"Anyone who thinks that today's fighters are tougher, or even better than those of the past are the same people who think speed and hard punches were invented at the same time color tv and slow motion instant replays were invented."

Well said!