Harry Greb vs Roy Jones Jr.

I don't think it is so clear that we are bigger faster stronger:

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/2606866/1/

The Evolution of Man ... Toward Suck
Anthropologist Not So Gently Points Out Basic Superiority of Our Ancient Forebears

By NICK WATT
ABC News - Nightline
Dec. 1, 2009

This content is protected

Jamaican Usain Bolt ran the 200 meters in 19.19 seconds at this year's track and field world championships in Berlin, setting a new world record. The fastest man who ever lived, right?

"He may be the fastest man around today, I wouldn't dispute that," said Peter McAllister, an anthropologist. "He certainly is not the fastest man ever to have lived."

Really? Well, according to anthropologists who have studied 20,000-year-old human footprints in Australia, the ancient hunter who left them was running at more than 23 mph, just a whisker slower than Bolt. But, they say, that hunter was accelerating.

To leave such prints, the hunter would likely have been moving through soft mud, and possibly 3 to 4 inches of water as well.

Apparently ancient aboriginals -- given spiked shoes, spandex shorts and a flat track -- would make Bolt look like he's going backward.

McAllister has written a book called "Manthropology: The Science of the Inadequate Modern Male." He claims we're pathetic specimens.

"I'm looking to puncture some of the pretensions we have about ourselves," said McAllister. "We think of ourselves as better in every respect. Well, I just want to show that we're not better."

McAllister claims a Neanderthal woman -- any Neanderthal woman -- could beat Arnold Schwarzenegger in an arm-wrestling match. And he's talking Arnie of Conan vintage.

And a lack of brawn, McAllister says, isn't our only weakness.

We think of ourselves as exceptionally supportive, holding our wives' hands when they give birth. Well, the ancient Huichol Indians tied ropes around their testicles for their wives to pull on.

That's sharing the pain.

'Don't Feel Too Bad'

These days we marvel at the lyrical prowess of artists like 50 Cent, who has written about 6,000 lines of rap, remembers them and performs them.

But the last of the ancient Slavic Guslars, or poets, without being able to read or write, had stored in their noggins an estimated 350,000 lines of verse.

"If you put these guys up against 50 Cent in a battle rap, they're going to come off the victors," claims McAllister.

Back to brawn. In a rowing race, modern oarsmen would be whupped by ancient Athenians, who powered ships with muscle. Charlton Heston pretended to be an ancient oarsmen in "Ben Hur." In reality, he wouldn't stand a chance.

Modern javelin throwers fall well short of ancient aboriginals.

And modern archers, with their arm guards and concentrated aim? Well, apparently, Genghis Khan and his boys were more accurate from a moving horse.

You get the picture.

"I'm trying to give us the straight dope about ourselves," said McAllister.

Which is that compared to our ancient forefathers, we're pathetic.

"These men are not that genetically different to us," said McAllister. "They just had such a tough working life. Most of the loss of our physical prowess is not genetic. It's mostly because of the lack of stress that we put ourselves under."

Our working lives, on the other hand are largely sedentary, or at least mechanized.

"The book is supposed to be funny, so don't feel too bad about it," said McAllister. "Maybe we'll just think twice before we go around boasting that we're the best that's ever been."

And maybe we should hit the gym.

 

Good 1, but I have a feeling these scientists have made a mistake or the footprints have altered over time

 

HA Ricky Fatton coming down to 140 from 200 pounds of beer and hot dogs to weigh in ringside in 90 degree heat and fight forty rounds. GIVE ME A BREAK!

You list Pac/Mayweather/Williams as being these greatly conditioned athletes. Frankly we know squat about Mayweather. You can lump him with Jones as someone who cherry picks competition and avoids tough fights. Does he look in good shape? Sure but that doesnt mean **** because boxing isnt a bodybuilding competition and like Jones I have to assume he doesnt want to fight the best because he knows something about his limitations that we havent seen yet. Pac has been under a cloud of possible steroid use (which I dont agree with but its there) and Williams. Well, if ever a fighter (and let me just say Im a fan of Williams) was a product of the modern era its him. Anyone think Williams would be competing at 147, 154, and maybe even 160 if he had to make weight ringside? So once again, frankly we dont know what he could accomplish.

As to the guy who thinks Toney and Hopkins were as good as anyone Greb fought. I disagree. Hopkins BECAME as good as SOME of the guys Greb fought but on the night he faced Jones he had never even come close to fighting at the championship level and only had about 20 fights. When Greb first fought and Tommy Loughran and beat him he was beating a guy who was considered young and green. Loughran had over 40 fights and by that point had already beaten several fighters who would have been considered top ten calibre fighters and two who were championship level fighters. That was a guy who was considered green. Nowadays hed be a champion. Toney is so overrated its ridiculous. He should easily have a handfull of loses on his record that it doesnt reflect and he was already showing *****s in his armor before he fought Jones (Tiberi anyone?). If having to win a criminal gift decision against Tiberi (who Im sorry but the guy was not a good fighter) wasnt bad enough he then loses to Griffin twice (which if you are as great as Toney is supposed to be shouldnt happen) and Drake Thadzi of all people. So hell no Toney wasnt as good as the names that really stand out on Greb's record. At best Toney was a very poor mans Mike Gibbons (in whose style Toney fought) and at worst he was a fat, lazy, underachieving slob who simply showed up for fights and hoped the judges voted for him when he minimized the action so as not to blow hot dog chunks all over the audience.

 

Thanks He. Man, you ain't kidding! Lotta gunfire on these boards. All good though. If you can separate the wheat from the chaff there are some pretty informed posters on here.

 

It could be and I don't know anything about how well respected this scientist is, but I am willing to consider the possibility that maybe people were tougher, etc. at an earlier time.

 

EPO is seriously going to help 800m-1600m, as would testosterone just look at what the Soviet/Chinese women did to those records.

I think the reason 800m-1600m hasn't progressed as much, is partly because East Africans (Kenyans/Ethiopians) have great genetics for long distance but not quite as much middle distance, those countries only seriously really started taking long distance running in the 80s-90s. I've heard stories of such runners getting down to low-13min 5ks shockingly easily

Your making the assumption Gebrasellasie and Bekele took EPO, I'm not convinced, especially Geb :nono he's my little hero

 

Did you watch Hatton in his earlier days, the pace he would set was pretty impressive, almost Henry Armstrong like, yes he blew upto 180lbs, but it made him work extra hard to make 140. Hatton had great stamina in his prime and thats what saw him beat Tyszu

Come on Mayweather doesn't have conditioning? Even if you think he's ducked fighters, hes fought elite opponents, always has the energy to slip and counter and win miniute upon miniute of a fight 1 of the hardest things to do - very hard to do takes allot of stamina . 1 thing I'd agree on is Mayweather doesn't set a great pace BUT this is partly because he doesn't leave himself in a position to be countered. Also Mayweather barely looks out of breath after 12rounds, is great at pacing himself and spars for 15miniute rounds in sparring

Williams/Pacquaio - 100 punch a round fighters, thats Henry Armstrong pace they're setting, who ofcourse is 1 of the best conditioned boxers we've seen

What you have to remember about Toney and Hopkins is both had extensive amateur careers of 100s of fights, Hopkins would be unbeaten for 12years after Jones beat him (and I'll tell you the Mercado draw was a robbery). ATG fighters and the best from 160-175 of the period, no doubt. Toney's record speaks for itself, ridiculous levels of depths on his resume even if he had an occasional off night, which most fighters do from time to time. BTW if you want to complain about Toney getting gifts, be balanced and aknowledge he has a good case for further wins over Griffin x2 and McCallum

 

Bull****. Ouma didn't have the goods, just like Miranda didn't have the goods. You've yet to prove how different degrees of poverty are relevant, particularly given the eminence of someone relatively middle class like Mayweather, for example.

Poverty is more likely to get guys into the sport and to stick with it, but in and of itself doesn't make them better fighters. Boxing requires toughness, but it also requires athleticism and skill.

Athletes have improved over time, and as mentioned it has nothing to do with natural selection. How do you think George Mikan would do against a prime Shaq? It's silly to even make that comparison.

The latest excuse-making for the older generations is PEDs, but as the graph I posted shows, improvements at the 100m occurred gradually throughout the previous century — prior to the PEDs you guys love to cite.

Your argument is based on romance and vast conspiracy theories, while again, measurable sports reinforce mine. And then there's integration, and the Shaq/Mikan thing. Don't be daft.

 

Well, aftervreading this piece, I'm going back to my cave..First i have to sell the house !!!

 

James Toney only had about 35 am fights. The highest amateur award he ever won was the novice golden gloves at 156. Furthermore amateur boxing today isnt or even in Toney and Hopkins era isnt what it was in years past. Now it is a slap fest designed to earn points. In years previous they were very similar to professional style boxing just with shorter distances or shorter rounds which often times produced more frenetic action.

 

Seb Coe ran 1:41.77 in what? 1979. Kipketer went 1:41.11 13 years ago. Rudisha is on a great run over the last year or two but he's still only doing 1.43's, a couple 1.42's and one 1.41.5. Similar trend in the 1500/mile. Meanwhile, Alan Wells was the best 100 meter guy in 79-80 going 10.1/10.2. Now, the top guys duke it out for the best in the 9.6's and 9.7's with Bolt going 9.5.

There's a great discrepancy in these "progressions"...

 

<= Greb was the man. He lived to box, he lived boxing...

 

Thats pretty poor examples, Alan Wells was never the fastest top 100m guy, even if you think he was the best in 1980. The world record dipped to 9.9 in 1968, so its gone down 0.3seconds in 50years thats a 3% progression

In the exact same time the 800m has gone from 1:44.3 in 1968 to 1:41.1, 3.2seconds also a 3% progression

So even though the World Record has remained static from 1999, both Seb and Kipketers records were very strong records, Seb's was earth shattering at the time, pretty much as earth shattering as Bolt is today in terms of percentage improvements

Sometimes world records are just amazingly good. I also don't think there are a specific group specialising in the 800m - AMericans NOPE, West Indians Nope, Kenyans NOPE (an after thought), Ethipiopians NOPE. Its pretty much random athletes going after the record without top training groups

 

If one is actually interested to evaluate things objectively, they will find plenty of examples of talented old-timers climbing to the top without having to fight half a hundred fights to prove themselves.

Hopkins looked marvelous (skillwise, and it's not because his opponents were that weak) before facing Jones. One doesn't need to speak theoretically about whether he was good enough or still green, when it's on film for anyone to see.