Condition of Jeffries hands/left arm vs Sharkey I,II, Ruhlin I, per 'In the Rin

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by guilalah, Jul 30, 2010.


  1. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Adam Pollack,
    'In the Ring with James J. Jeffries'
    http://www.winbykopublications.com/books.html


    p. 124 (prior to Jeffries-Sharkey I)

    "One issue being discussed as a potential hinderance to Jeff's career was the fact that he has hand problems. 'In the fight with Ruhlin . . . Jeffries broke his right hand early in the encounter. The weapon is still weak . . . The left hand has also been broken by being struck over the back of the member by a club . . . Jeffries is in the position of a great race horse with bad legs.' Sharkey's manager said that Jeff's hands were weak, and that a punch on Tom's skull would not hurt Tom, but hurt Jeff's hands."



    pp. 133-134 (after Jeffries-Sharkey I)

    "After the fight, Jeff's thumbs were in poor condition, badly swollen and discolored. Jeffries said that during the fight, his hands caused him a great deal of pain, and as a result, he was unable to hit with much force, for every blow caused a twinge of pain to shoot through his arm, causing him to flinch. That was his explanation for why he did not punch even harder or try to finish Tom off. 'I would have put Sharkey out if it were not that my hands were in such poor condition. During the fight I hurt them by hitting Sharkey on the head.
    "Jeff said that his hands were not well even going into the bout. ''If my thumbs had not been injured I would have whipped him in nine or ten rounds. My thumbs have been in bad condition ever since I boxed with Van Buskirk.' Jeffries had fought several times in the past year and had not had sufficient time to heal his hands. 'I am going to rest until my hands get in shape again, as I can't hit with them.' One writer confirmed that Jeff's hands were a bit swollen before the fight started."

    p. 288
    (Jeffries-Sharkey II, round 2 comments)
    "Jeffries later claimed to have reinjured his left arm when punching Sharkey hard in this round, which thereafter affected how hard and how often he could throw the left."


    p.308 (Pollack summarizes Jeffries after Jeffries-Sharkey II)
    "After the fight, Jeff ... said that the injury to his left arm that he had suffered in training bothered him during the fight, and as a result, he could not punch as hard or as often with his left, and had to rely primarily on his right. This explains why Jeff relied on his right so much, when ordinarily he mostly used his left."

    p. 652
    footnote 895
    (post-Jeffries-Munroe)
    San Francisco Bulletin, Aug. 28, 1904
    (Pollack summarizes) "Speaking of the past, Jeff said that Sharkey caught him out of condition. He had hurt his left arm in training," (for Jeffries-Sharkey II) "and he could barely use it. He dropped Sharkey with it in the 2nd round, but it hurt so badly that he never lead with it for the next 10 rounds. He had to fight with his right. The first time he fought Sharkey, his hands were so swollen and sore it pained him every time that he hit him."
     
  2. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I bring this up because the Sharkey fights are often mentioned in discussing Jeffries abilities as a hitter, particularly in comparison to Firtzsimmons treatment of Sharkey.

    I think it likely Jeffries was not as his best as a hitter either time he faced Sharkey.

    To be sure, hand problems characterized much of Jeffries early career; and Jeffries later admitted that, at this period of his career, he did not know how to hit properly.

    However, I think it very likely that the Jeffries of Ruhlin I, Fitzsimmons II, Corbett II and Munroe was a more potent offensive force than anything Sharkey had had to face, and perhaps comparable to Fitzsimmons (albiet not so opportunistic a KO puncher).
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Anything wrong with Jeffries hands/arm in their first fight?????

    And they say Johnson admirers are full of excuses :patsch
     
  4. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    see some people here are so quick do shut down these stories



    its one thing if their first fight lasted long


    its another thing if in the second fight jeffries had great chances to knock sharkey out, but couldnt


    if you were a crowd member at the fight, and you see sharkey barely able to stand, but jeffries hitting him with half his power, you would clearly consider the injured hands.
     
  5. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "My thumbs have been in bad condition ever since I boxed with Van Buskirk."

    ....Sounds possible:good
     
  6. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Something to remember. They boxed with 5 ounce gloves. Often with zero handwraps. These weren't short fights. Imagine a fighter today boxing with no wraps, in 5 ounce gloves, and going 20 rounds, as Jeff did. You think they wouldn't have hand troubles? Guys like Floyd Mayweather have massive wraps in 8 ounce gloves, only going 12 rounds, and he isn't hitting with over 200 pounds of weight behind the blows, and even he was taking injections in his hands. It isn't as easy and painless as it looks.
     
  7. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I'm not looking to 'excuse' the hand problems Jeffries had early in his career. By his own later admission, Jeffries at that time had not yet learned to punch properly.

    I am suggesting that Sharkey might well have never faced the sort of punching he would have encountered from a pugilistically matured and healthy Jeffries.
     
  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Jeffries is criticised for this fight, but I wonder how many champions would have taken on a challenger as dangerous as Sharkey with one arm virtualy out of action.

    Aside from his injuries, he was definitely on a learning curve at this stage of his career.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Jeffries should not be criticised for either Sharkey fight, imo,Sharkey was a rough and tough dangerous challenger,I just think Jeffries power is somewhat overated,and that ,that may be the underlying reason Sharkey finished both fights upright.
    I come to this conclusion because Fitz wrecked Sharkey twice, with one punch kos.
    Where should we rate Jeffries in terms of heavyweight power?
    Maybe that is worth a thread on its own?
     
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Correct. Jeffries forgot without hand wraps for most of his fight. The gloves in those days were tough on big punchers.
     
  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    It is true that the facts leave some room for interpretation where Jeffries power is concerned.

    After reading the Pollack biography I tended to the conclusion that Jeffries did have top end power and that his failure to stop certain fighters more quickly was due to other factors such as stylistic considerations, lack of finishing form, and injuries.

    While some in the media questioned Jeffries power, the fighters on the receiving end of it seem to have been prety uniformly impressed by it.
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Not having read a biography that has attracted nothing but positive reviews, I shall have to reserve judgement.
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Any reports on Choynsky , ,or Fitz having problems wtih their hands due to small gloves?
    Both were rated better punchers than Jeff.
     
  14. Surf-Bat

    Surf-Bat Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I've read about Fitz having hand problems throughout his career. His hands were by accounts pretty gnarled. As far as them shattering I would defer to Mr. Pollack.

    Adam?
     
  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Yes. After Fitz vs Jeffries II, Fitz who unloaded multiple bombs on Jeffries head and face had badly busted up hands. He feared he would never be able to fight again.

    Regarding Choynski, I am aware he caught some guys with bombs. I am aware some felt he was the best hitter in the era. OK, then why is his KO KO percentage is rather low?

    I don't think he hit has hard as Fitz or Jeffries. Read some of Jeffries stuff. Most of his opponets fell down face first.