*** Your top 15 H2H peak/prime Heavyweights***

And the fact that he couldn't fight backwards, his size, and reach...

 

Maybe Cotto20, who was Frazier Hook?

 

My top 15 is this. I have three men at the three spot, I simply can't seperate them. Basically my 3-7 is completely interchangable, although Liston at 3 is too high imo. I always feel that Holyfield is much too low on my list, thinking about moving him up.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Tyson
3. Lewis
3. Marciano
6. Holmes
7. Liston
8. Foreman
9. Frazier
10. Wills
11. Dempsey
12. Johnson
13. Holyfield
14. Jeffries
15. Baer

 

When rating Liston highly, I guess it depends on how highly you think of the late 1950s era Floyd Patterson, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams in terms of quality...I think very highly of it. This definitely sways my opinion since Liston was so dominant against these men, plus more(Harris, Valdes, DeJohn, Bethea, Summerlin)

 

I like Max Baer, but I cannot see Max Baer ever being rated over a fighter like Jersey Joe Walcott.

 

Purely head to head... which is the biggest reach of all in criteria:

1) Ali '67
2) Lewis '97
3) Holmes '82
4) Louis '38
5) Tyson '88
6) Foreman '73
7) Liston '59
8) Frazier '70
9) Dempsey '19
10) Holyfield '96 (reluctantly. i feel he was quite juiced and was inconsistent over what should have been his prime)

 

Dempsey and Frazier over Marciano....interesting. Don't agree with it.

Also,

If you feel holyfield was juiced...then why include the cheater in your list?

 

It's such a difficult list to do because, at least in my case, I am trying to pinpoint a certain year so as to rule out the inconsistencies every fighter had. Certainly, Lewis- as high as I ranked him- twice had huge problems focussing on the fight at hand. The Louis of the Conn fight would have great troubles with guys who didn't even sniff my list...

And Holyfield... I already regret that. Fought with great heart but very inconsistent and sorry, obviously juiced to the gills.

 

Perhaps. I find his stretch from Uzcudon in 1931 to the Braddock fight in 1935 is very, very under rated. He knocked out two lineal champions in Max Schmeling and Primo Carnera as well as beating other capable fighters in Ernie Schaff and King Levinsky.

But yeah, Walcott is just as deserving and on another day he might be in my top 15.

 

I think very highly of these men but I don't see anything on about his resume that makes me want to rank him above, say Tyson who is probably the closest to him with regards to strengths/weaknesses of resumes. As in those who rank Liston highly tend to also rank Tyson highly because dominance is a determining factor.

Liston has the single better win in Patterson, but Tyson beat more quality fighters. Anyway I just think Tyson gets under rated on this board, while he has the same arguements for a higher ranking as Liston.

 

Young Foreman and Old Foreman are way too high. Young Foreman got outboxed by Young and nearly got ko'd by Lyle. Old Foreman got outboxed by Morrison, Schulz and was on his way to losing to Moorer, while ducking most the top fighters

Tyson is too low, can you seriously see Marciano/Frazier/Johnson/Wlad/Louis taking Tyson's power or outboxing him? I think not

 

Tyson might be underrated, but it's probably more introspective to the fact that Liston gets overrated (Or too often rated above Tyson). Like you said, Tyson clearly has the better quality of names. And not only that, but he's got achievements that Liston doesn't and was champion for much longer. Either way you split it, he comes out ahead (Unless you think Liston is a God in your H2H aspect).

 

Head to head, I'm not sure I can picture Baer beating Witherspoon or Thomas at their respective best.

 

At their respective bests though I'd pick both to beat more than a few men in most top 25s. It's not a huge knock on Baer, although I'd hesitate in picking either over him anyway. Who did they ever beat that's as good as Schmeling?