Where does Harry Greb rank on an all time heavyweight list?

Dan Porky Flynn had absolutely ZERO wins that would rank him as a top flight heavyweight when he first lost a decision to Billy Wells. In fact he had been beaten by Frank Klaus, Twin Sullivan, and Stanley Ketchel (All middleweights) not exactly a sterling record. By the time he lost to Joe Beckett he was completely shot and being used as a record padder for other fighters. He beat Renault AFTER fighting both. You dont gain a ranking by beating someonewho may or may not win ONE decent fight in the future. Thats not the way it works.

And yes both beat Gunner Moir who had challenged and lost to Burns for the title. That being said he lost, he didnt deserve his shot having never faced anyone worthy of gaining a ranking for a title. The only reason he got a title shot was because Burns was on tour and he was the British Champion. Anyone who has seen Gunner Moir-Billy Wells will tell you neither could fight a lick and the fact that Moir managed to KO Wells (his only win after Burns) should tell you a lot more about Well's limitations than Moir's ability.

If thats the best you can do for ranking those two and thus Carpentier well... we have a slightly different view of competetive sports.

 

dosent this prove he had something left and becket and wells beat a good guy?

sounds like reson enough to me. dont base your opinion on hindsight. so how come burns "couldnt fight a lick" because he couldnt beat moir quick enough? sounds to me like you rubish anyone who dont fit your opininion.

so a world champions chalenger cant fight a lick? this is disrespectful. you are not talking about a bum off the street who cant fight. this ia a man who was a champion of his own country before jet travel. wouldnt the champion of the world dismiss somebody "who cant fight a lick" inside of one second? not 10 rounds.

clearly. the whole of europe got it wrong...atsch

 

Like I said, show me where the wins these guys had that enabled them to be considered championship challengers or even contenders. You havent. You listed one guy, porky flynn, who wasnt even that good himself, that they beat and that was before all of his good wins, and after he was finished as a fighter. Gunner Moir was a joke. Period. Im basing that on his pitiful record and the footage that exists on him. He was little more than a barroom brawler. Like I said, if you think these two wins constitute being classed as anything beyond a local favorite then you and I approach this sport and other sports much differently.

Its like trying to say that because my local university baseball team beat my local high school baseball team that they now qualify to play the NY Yankees in the World Series. That is essentially what you are saying.

 

From Boxrec


"Tunney gave Greb as thorough a beating as he has ever received. So completely was Greb outclassed and outfought in six of the ten rounds that he resorted to a defensive fight after the third and thereafter was guilty of persistent holding and stalling varied only by rare flashes of offensive fighting, which Tunney quickly terminated by a devastating attack. Tunney concentrated his fire almost entirely on Greb's heart and body, landing with deadly accuracy and telling effect. After a flashy start, Greb went on the defensive and let entire rounds go by without making more than a weak show of attack, without landing a decisive punch, even on those rare occasions when he undertook to do the leading." (Associated Press)

 

I dont need to quote from boxrec. I have all of the newspapers present at ringside from the twin cities that day as well as the associated press and UPI. Like I said, it was a convincing win but a demolition? No. Tunney was always fond of saying that Greb told him he would never fight him again after this fight. Bull****. Greb was wired an offer to fight Tunney in Miami January of 1926 and accepted. Tunney and Billy Gibson never responded to the offer despite being in Miami at the time, instead they lobbied to fight Young Stribling. When it became apparent that Greb was odd man out in Tunney's mind he moved on. Tunney was then scheduled to face Young Stribling but that fight fell through when Tunney became front runner for a match with Dempsey and chose to protect his ranking and wait for a title shot rather than fight.

 

Not sure if I am wasting my breath but Tunney is classed as a 15-20 ATG Heavy by most historians. He beat Greb 5 times of their 6 encounters and by their last fight Gene had Harry in his pocket. How the hell was Greb going to beat Tunney when Gene eventually became a heavy weight.

Prime for prime Greb was 27 and Tunney was 25 in the first fight and 9 months on in the second fight so both still young enough. Tunney had problems tagging Greb due to Harry incredible head movement aligned with him throwing an aircraft hangers worth of punches at Gene.

As a Greb fan I know that Tunney changed tactics for their subsequent fights on the advise of Benny Leonard who told Tunney to aim his punches at Grebs body as his head was too elusive to hit. When Gene got his tactic right and counter punched to the body and avoided going toe to toe he had Harry's number.

Greb was 5'8" and a phenomenon but it is at middleweight (My No.1 ATG Middle) he is truely the greatest. I wouldn't argue with him making the Top 10 ATG light heavy list but at heavy he was too far out of his natural weight. Tunney was bigger man and was clever enough to use that to his advantage in their fights.

 

Yes but Greb was also blind in one eye when they began fighting and the ringwear of over 200 fights. He is also believed by a majority of ringside papers to have been robbed of his second fight with Tunney (changed tactics or not) and to have at least gotten a draw in the fourth if not an outright win.

 

That is a newspaper report I took from Boxrec and that reporter makes clear his feelings on the fight.

If you have a newspaper report that states the fight was closer than that Associated Press article I posted then put it up.

If you have the video that would be even better

 

I think it's clear enough that the 1st and last fights were convincing wins the other fights were close.

My original point was that by the time Tunney got to heavyweight he had Harry's number and as Greb is quoted as saying Tunney knew Harry so well he could predict Harry's every move.

 

Hows this:

The Minneapolis Journal had the first round even. In the second Greb landed a left hook that sent Tunney back on his heels and followed up with a powerful right that sent Tunney reeling into the ropes. Greb took the second and third. Tunney took the fourth, fifth, and sixth. The seventh was even and Tunney took the last three.

The Minneapolis Tribune, George Barton (who I have a ton of respect for) Gave Greb three rounds, one even, and six Tunney.


All reports state that after the third round it was a slow match due to Greb's holding and Tunney's lack of speed (I found this latter comment strange).

Tommy Gibbons stated that Tunney was hampered by Greb's difficult style and that Greb should be given credit in that he was outweighed by 14 pounds.

 

Im not claiming moir or wells were ATG or even champion material, they were worthy names of the time thats all. worthy. Burns was a world champion, the first truly international champion, Moir took him ten rounds. come on, bar room brawler's dont go no ten rounds with a curent world champion. you seem to have a dim view of british boxing?

 

I think Tunney improved quite clearly and significantly towards the end of his career. He was still improving when he retired.

Anyway, i think Greb is probably worthy of a top 40 ranking at HW, arguably top 20. I'd put Tunney ahead of him.

 

Didn't Tunney win the second fight ? I thought it was a decision fight, and the judges voted Tunney.

 

It was a robbery. Even Commisioner Muldoon threatened an investigation.