I respect him as a good champion and a tough, strong fighter. As far as I can tell though, he was human and felt pain and fatigue like everyone else. I also can't get around the fact that he never beat an exceptional fighter who was in his prime. I think a major test of greatness is when a fighter can defeat a peer who is also at the top of his game. Marciano never cleared that hurdle. Also, most good fighters he fought were roughly his own size or just a bit bigger. Certainly being only 5'10", 185 lbs. wasn't a huge handicap for 1950's heavyweights. My point is that on so many of these threads, people claim Rocky could hang with and even beat some of the post 1960 all-time greats. Maybe some of you can convince me how he can overcome the physical obstacles of dealing with these fighters. I see Ali, Holmes and Foreman, to use 3 examples, as all being in the 6'3"-6'4" range, all in the 215 range when in their primes, all with huge reach advantages, all with proven tough chins. I then see Rocky at 5'10", 185 lbs, with a 67" inch reach and slow of hand and foot. Can any fighter really give up 5 inches in height, 30 lbs. in weight and all that reach and still be competitive? How can we know this if Rocky never fought anyone with those physical advantages and with the skills those fighters have? Personally, I see Ali and Holmes easily keeping him at bay and slicing his face into ribbons within 5 rounds. I also see Rocky, with his low crouching style being nearly decapitated by Foreman's booming uppercuts and hooks. All right people, convince me otherwise.
I can't convince you of something you already believe and probably won't change your mind on. However, recently Holmes in an ESPN interview said the toughest fighter of past champions he could've fought would be Rocky Marciano. Some say it was damage control... about 25 years too late. Ali respected Marciano greatly after the sparring they did for the Computer Fight. The matchups you require him to win are tough style-matchups, particularly Ali and Foreman. Those fights are incredibly difficult for someone like Marciano. I think he would have a legitimate chance against Holmes. You can nitpick any fighter's resume of not being an ATG when they are at their best. Who did Lennox Lewis beat when they were at their best? Who did Holmes really beat at his best? Gerry Cooney? A good fighter, but not great, and certainly not a fighter that was brought up in the best way. More hype than truth. What true great did Dempsey beat in their prime? You're holding a standard that's a lot. Walcott was a great fighter, and the champion although he was a little past his best. He was still arguably within his prime to some, and he fought a great fight. I think his best was around 48 in the Louis fight, personally. Still a terrific fighter. I think Moore was at his HW best when Marciano fought him. He had a good streak/record going up into that fight. Though, Moore was not a big HW and the LHW champ at the time. Rocky has a nice record, with a lot of good names. He doesn't have that great big HW on his resume, but many other HWs don't. He doesn't names that sparkle, or pop out but there are good fighters on his track record. Had he fought Nino Valdes instead of Cockell it might've helped knowing he could've beaten a real big HW challenger. But there was no limit protecting him... Rocky was simply the best then. Had he fought Patterson he would have a real name. Although that fight was never really wanted on the other aisle. And had Patterson got beat up bad by Rocky, his career could've been seriously altered which would seriously limit Rocky's potential for his legacy. Maybe he wouldn't have been the Patterson we know. And if he's not that fighter, it won't matter as much.
You're articulate, j, 'n make your points very logically. But with Rocky -- like an iceberg -- nine-tenths was below the surface. If you didn't share the ring with him, you'd never see it on TV. Spent alotta time with him in camp, in gyms 'n ringside at his fights. He would start out 5-10, 'n get bigger 'n bigger every round.
I can trust the red marks all across Ali's stomach after the filming of the Superfight. Ali was bruised and in actual pain from that. I can trust that. I'm not putting my stock in Holmes response, but it does say something if he names that fighter and the OP thinks Holmes destroys him. Unless it's damage control... 25 years later.
I guess that if anything will convince you otherwise, it would be reading the testimonies of his opponents, sparing partners, and people who shared a ring with him up to and including Ali himself. Then we could add the observations of people who saw him in action in the gym such as our resident John Garfield. Some verry striking common themes emerge from all these testimonies. They suggest that he was a lot more awkward and unpredictable than given credit for, but above all they show that he was a truly horible fighter to share a ring with, who made his oponents uncomfortable for every second of every round. He relentlesly kept throwing the power shots, and if he couldnt hit anything else he would beat on your arms untill you could no longer hold them up. Anybody who sparred four rounds with came out feeling like a truck had hit them, never mind people who fought him. What Marciano brought to the table stylisticaly and offensivley was unconventional and it was unique among the heavyweight champions. It took the boxing world as a whole some time to realise what they were dealing with.
I'd say the late bloomer Walcott was prime or near it when Marciano KO'd him the first time, regardless of whether or not he retired right after the rematch. He'd just come off two straight wins over Charles, which included one of the best knockouts in Heavyweight history.
Rocky was as much an everyman as any heavyweight champion has ever been. People relate to him. He's liked and respected to no end for that. Also, he lacked many natural attributes that other ATG's had in abundance. He lived and died by a ridiculous work ethic that few fighters if any ever matched. Again, that's respectable and people like him as a person and a fighter for it. Where Ali and Louis were symbols, larger then life, Marciano was very much a normal guy, who you cold actually relate to and understand. I think that's half the reason he's liked as much as he is.
Two pertinent points to make... As I have posted before...I saw Marciano in his first fight in NY against Carmine Vingo in 1949...Marciano gave thge 6ft2" vingo a monstrous beating koing Vingo in the 6th round...Vingo though young was a great prospect and was the size of an Ali or Holmes, so I believe Rocky could cope with larger men easily...Rocky fought "smaller", which made him a not so easy target,when you are punching down against a crouching fighter... Point two...Years ago I met and talked to Ruby Goldstein the referee who told me when he refereed a Marciano bout Rocky would break blood vessels on his opponents arms, causing purple blotches..This caused their guard to go down...Rocky was not "pretty" in the squared circle, but was a human battering ram, who if necessary could hit with the same force in the 15th round as in the first round...He was a bigger version of Henry Armstrong...Inhuman stamina, puts a strain on the greatest classical boxers, I believe....And Rocky was an example....
On the size issue, I think that people are too quick to forgett that Marciano was giving up height weight and reach to virtualy all of his oponents, and his style was built around overcoming that. He was 5' 11'' and 185lbs with a 67'' reach. An oponent who was 6' 1'' and 200lbs with a 76'' reach didnt seen to give him any problems. He was strong enougfh to throw such a fighter wound like a rag doll. I don't think that an oponent who is 6' 3'' with and 215lbs 80'' is going to be an insurmountable problem, especialy if he lacks top end power. They sure as hell arn't going to keep him at bay. The only way to stay away from him is going to be to run.
It is a valid question and the answer, putting aside all the Hail Marys is the match up ... I think here were many other heavyweight greats who had the heart, courage, blah, blah , blah that Rocky had .. Rocky was simply a very good, tough fighter ... the sum of his parts exceeded his line items ... that being said, with all his intangibles, he never fought great or even very good big men in their primes so we are limited on what we have to go on ... his legend is built on a perfect storm of a terrific fighter, limited opposition and intelligence in knowing when to quit.
I do understand where you're coming from, its hard to invisage rocky beating some of the legends who arnt just tall and give a size disadvantage toward him but are also great ( or better ) boxers, i dont think i can convince you rocky could beat anyone as i dont knw how the fights would actually go but i'm going to post a link - [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0yHvw-vW0&feature=PlayList&p=EFAF4F05BEECDACC&playnext=1&index=4[/ame], the video has been postd before in a diffrent thread ( how i watched it ), and it shows rockys underated defense, it shows rocky wasnt just a brawler but had a good defense that people didnt realse, i dont know if you watched it in the previous thead but i posted the link here and hope it opens your mind a little to the possibility of rocky being a little better than previously thought lol.
