What Fighters would be a favourite over Ray Robinson at 160??

:huh I was talking about Fullmer and Basilio - two entirely irrelevant examples that you brought up. Anyway, the "he had trouble with X, imagine what Y would do" card has been played over and over again and it doesn't get any more convincing when it's brought up. Ali struggled with Jones, imagine what Liston would do... Duran struggled with Viruet, imagine what Leonard would do... etc.

 

Fair enough. So what is your measuring stick for how Robinson would do against middleweights in mythical matchups if you're going to discount the many actual fights he DID have against middleweights?

The "X" in this case isn't a particular fighter. It's a weight class. And a weight class SRR struggled with big time in his career, regardless of the style of the individual.

 

And let's call "Y" a style, in this case that rough, mauling, brawling style from middleweights with strong chins. SRR definitely struggled with "Y" on many occasions, in his prime and past. So isn't it fair to assume that he would struggle in mythical matchups with guys like Dick Tiger and other middleweights who had loads of "Y"?

 

I have film of it, but it's not the best quality. Kind of hard to tell what's going on. But you can see Georgie giving him all he wants.

 

The footage we have on him at his best at the weight, e.g. the fight with Lamotta, Graziano, Turpin II etc., perhaps Basilio II if you're talking past-prime performances.

What?

 

You can't just pick and choose here. You have to consider all of his bouts vs middleweights.

The point I made was that SRR struggled mightily with strong middleweights who pressured him and could take his shots, irrespective of peak factor. This isn't opinion, it's fact and that's why I chose Tiger to be a possible favorite in this MM.

In my opinion he would have struggled with Basilio or Fullmer even when in his prime because those are the types who ALWAYS troubled him.

 

says a lot about what kind of attraction ray was. thanks john i love hearing stories about the older atgs, especially like hearing bout sugar ray robinson. the video online seems to point that ray beat abrams, ray very fast and strong with fast combos beating abrams to the punch, looked like a great fight.

 

Thats a very good summary of Monzon, although I do think you are selling his technical ability short. He hasd for example a perfect 1-2.

 

Agreed. In one off fights at 160 given the combatants come in at top form he'd probably be underdog to nobody even at 160. Hagler, Monzon and Hopkins would all obviously have a chance obviously but would probably not be favoured. All three were much more consistent than SRR at 160, but best night for best night it's a different proposition.

 

That might fit under Manassa's sense of distance and timing comments.

 

Yeh it probably does come to think about it. I reckon we are just classifying things differently, I'm calling Monzon fighting to his strengths 'Technical skill' and hes calling it fighting to his strengths.

 

i think the film youre referring to also came in the pound for pound documentary, thats the only film of robbie agaisnt abrams that exists to my knowledge. and yeaj they both are giving as good as they get, looked like a really interesting and entertaining fight.

 

it's great that a slew of championship class middleweights over 7 years were able to take such advantage of these shortcomings.