How Joe Louis Would Have Beaten Muhammad Ali!

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Caelum, Aug 9, 2010.


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  1. Muchmoore

    Muchmoore Guest

    The thing that throws a kink into this matchup is that we've never seen Ali/Clay against a great (to borrow a term from McGrain) composite puncher. We saw him against guys that could punch a wall down (Foreman, Shavers, Liston etc.) and we saw him against some of the best swarmers in history (Frazier) but he was never in against a guy with a mix of both. As in a great combo of speed, power, and technique.

    There's only been a few in history at HW imo, Dempsey, Louis, and Tyson are the big ones. How does Ali do against these guys, Louis may very well be able to eventually take him out.
     
    Muchmoore, Aug 9, 2010
    Muchmoore, Aug 9, 2010
    #16
  2. Caelum

    Caelum Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I disagree. Ali's jab is not even the best in HW history like some claim.

    Joe's jab was fast, accurate, sharp, and hard. Ali's wasn't all those combined. I would give Joe the edge in the Jab department.

    And yes, you take them at their peak. So that would be Ali pre-exile and Louis pre WWII.
     
    Caelum, Aug 9, 2010
    Caelum, Aug 9, 2010
    #17
  3. El Bujia

    El Bujia Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Louis's jab wasn't particularly fast, in my opinion. Not like Ali's, nor did he have the range on it that Ali had. Sure, Ali was unorthodox with most of his moves, but that doesn't mean he was inefficient with them.

    Louis had a fine jab, but it never struck me as one of the best in history as many claim. Given Ali's advantages in lateral movement to go along with the speed and length advantage he would have, I can't see Louis consistently bettering him with the jab. In fact I see the opposite.
     
    El Bujia, Aug 9, 2010
    El Bujia, Aug 9, 2010
    #18
  4. Caelum

    Caelum Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Here is the thing that some overlook: Guys with one solid big punch, like Foreman, like Liston, like Shavers...can be less affective than guys like Tyson who can throw punches incredible fast, sharp/accurate, hard, and in combinations and hit you with a shot you don't see coming. Speed is key here. All the mentioned attributes were key for Tyson, key for Louis. When Tyson was less affective it was because he wasn't using his jab, wasn't using that same speed of attack to throw his punches in timed combinations with accuracy/precision shots that caught you off guard. Good article from S.I. that talks about it.


    Anyway, you have a better shot at seeing and preparing for a Foreman bomb than a combination attack from Tyson. Tyson could get you focused on one punch while the killer punch is coming for you even harder and that could be the second punch or the third. And all he needed to do was stun you and that's when all hell broke loose...just like Joe Louis if he got you hurt. Louis was arguably the best finisher in HW history.

    Louis could also hit those spots before the window closed. Foreman and Shavers weren't that good in that category.

    Sonny Banks caught Clay/Ali with more than one clean shot but the key punch that knocked him down happened for a reason...

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tej_r5OFYwM[/ame]


    Doug Jones gave Ali fits because of what he could do overall as well.
     
    Caelum, Aug 9, 2010
    Caelum, Aug 9, 2010
    #19
  5. El Bujia

    El Bujia Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ali was in his second year as a pro against Banks, and I believe his 3rd or 4th year against Jones. He seemed to be making a lot more mistakes around that time than later on from what I've viewed. Circa '66 was when he really reached his full stride to me.
     
    El Bujia, Aug 9, 2010
    El Bujia, Aug 9, 2010
    #20
  6. Muchmoore

    Muchmoore Guest

    A heavyweight has never been as good as Ali was against Terrel.

    IMO of course :yep
     
    Muchmoore, Aug 9, 2010
    Muchmoore, Aug 9, 2010
    #21
  7. Caelum

    Caelum Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It wasn't just about the Jab with Louis. Louis's arsenal consisted of every punch in the book. He also used feints which made him so affective at his best.

    Ali still has to land on him and to do that, you are going to get hit one way or another eventually. Ali wasn't someone who never got hit...especially against faster guys who could throw more than one punch at at time.
     
    Caelum, Aug 9, 2010
    Caelum, Aug 9, 2010
    #22
  8. El Bujia

    El Bujia Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's a good thing Louis was nowhere near as fast, then.

    Anyways, I don't doubt that Ali would get hit, and often. I just strongly doubt he'd get stopped. I also believe that in the process he'd land more slicing blows with the jab and right cross from the outside, doing the more consistent work. That could either lead to a late stoppage in his favor or a Decision win. More often than not, he'd be my pick.
     
    El Bujia, Aug 9, 2010
    El Bujia, Aug 9, 2010
    #23
  9. TommyV

    TommyV Loyal Member banned

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    You'll probably be hard pressed to find many disagreeing with you.
     
    TommyV, Aug 9, 2010
    TommyV, Aug 9, 2010
    #24
  10. tommygun711

    tommygun711 The Future Full Member

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    Ali would've outpointed and danced circles around Joe Louis.
     
    tommygun711, Aug 9, 2010
    tommygun711, Aug 9, 2010
    #25
  11. Caelum

    Caelum Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I've always favored Ali by the way. I thought the article was interesting though.

    Louis was fast and what also helps is timing, accuracy, feints in order to set-up the punch.

    What I meant about "Faster guys" were those that were faster than those 200+ HW fighters that tended to be slow...compared.
    Ali was caught even at his fastest against Banks and Cooper...and Doug Jones was tagging him up.

    Shots from Louis can be hard to see because of how he strikes and where. That's the difficulty you face.

    Louis could also bang to the body. He made each body-shots count. He didn't need to be like Frazier where it was an all out attack to break you down. He would make you miss and get that exposed spot and or set up a punch and get you in a vulnerable position. Again, he can even hit you with a body-shot when you don't expect it.

    He would try to slow down Ali with body-shots besides using the Jab to set-up his other punches. Chuvalo went to Ali's body and gave Ali trouble although Chuvalo also hit the kidneys and testicles :lol: to do it.
     
    Caelum, Aug 9, 2010
    Caelum, Aug 9, 2010
    #26
  12. Muchmoore

    Muchmoore Guest

    Clay was an embryo when he fought Sonny Banks.

    What happened when he rematched Cooper and didn't completely fool around?

    Essentially the Cooper and Jones fights were learning fights, he fought much better men than these later on and had few struggles.
     
    Muchmoore, Aug 9, 2010
    Muchmoore, Aug 9, 2010
    #27
  13. ticar

    ticar Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    joe louis had the best offense artillery in hw history.just imagine if louis had the benefits of today's training.imagine him doing heavy compound lifts,some olympic weightlifting,with proper nutrition and ped's(i do belive most of the fighters today are users).i mean he was so fast and powerful without this benefits,and using the benefits of today he would be a rock solid 220 pounds offensive machine,with more speed and power :shock::scaredas:
    and btw,great article :good
     
    ticar, Aug 9, 2010
    ticar, Aug 9, 2010
    #28
  14. Caelum

    Caelum Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He still had his flaws even at his fastest.

    True, learning fights but still had his flaws with his defense. He still had tendencies.

    You also have to look at what Banks and Jones came to the table with that some of the others, even if they are regarded better, may not have had.

    Some of those bigger guys, even if regarded as better, don't always have the ability of the lighter-weight guys.
     
    Caelum, Aug 9, 2010
    Caelum, Aug 9, 2010
    #29
  15. gentleman jim

    gentleman jim gentleman jim Full Member

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    The bottom line is that Ali and Louis never fought anyone quite like each other. Louis never fought a man with the size and speed combination of Ali and Ali never fought a fundementally sound and deadly puncher like Louis. I can't say who would win in this mythical matchup but Ali cannot clown with Joe or underestimate him one bit. If Joe hurts Ali and that is a distinct possibility then Joe finishes him. We're talking about the greatest composite punching HW in history....period. He won't get tired like Foreman or super cautious like Shavers and he won't just wing left hooks like Frazier. This guy is calculating, precise and deadly with both hands and is a textbook fighter.What a fight!
     
    gentleman jim, Aug 9, 2010
    gentleman jim, Aug 9, 2010
    #30
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