The Liston/Ali tragedy....

my sentiments exactly - very very very strange fights indeed - give me a different feeling to any other fights I could watch - just wierd - even the first fight which I kind of think had some elements of genuineness to it was odd :huh Liston really just looked like he was going through the motions - like he was being told to go a few rounds - he's so subdued compared to watching any of his other fights - even when it came to that 5th round it was almost like a spanner had got thrown into the already dodgy script at the last minute by mistake (almost like some counter sting by a rival set of gangsters haha) - he wasn't putting everything he had into those punches at all....and he had Clay at his mercy and I don't know - you just watch other fights of Liston's and he's laying them out flatter than a pancake - you can see the venom in him in all his other fights but it just isn't there against Clay and then the second fight it's like there counting the agreed number of circuits of the ring they'd agreed to do and then Sonny puts himself into position for Ali to do the anchor punch thing and then its almost like everyone is just too embarrassed to kind even bother to raise much of an objection - the gate for the 2nd match was ridiculously low aswell ??? Somebody must have got wind of what was getting ready to go down??

 

FACTS - Not one shred of any evidence for a fix in nearly in 46 years says it all really.

 

"I think Sonny gave that second fight away [to Muhammad Ali]. I swear.

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' I said, 'In the first round?' " says Liston's widow Geraldine on ESPN Classic's SportsCentury series.


http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Liston_Sonny.html

 

This was touched on...

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=11142&more=1


I've heard similar

 

Angelo Dundee says in his book that they were massaging Liston's shoulder between rounds and that he believes that is where the substance in Ali's eyes came from.

 

there is no mystery for me. Its not unrealistic to sugest Liston deteriated as a champion. he had not put in many rounds over the last few years. going to round 2 was like twice the work he was used to. round 5 he was totaly out of gass. Liston knew how fast clay was, if sonny looked wary or subdued isnt it fair that he was aware of exposing himself to counters? as it was I think he landed more shots on young clay than most had at that point. missing and over reaching did tire him out, Liston was not used to missing. he took a beating in that last compleated round. Liston knew he was beat, spent and done. It was going to get worse and he was too tired to get back into it. he was not prepared for the humiliation.

The second fight IMO Liston just did a buster douglas. genuine flash knock down but he just lost intrest. I know he got up, but Liston did not want to. maybe he was disalusioned with the sport, who knows. Maybe he knew he was going to be humiliated again? I know for sure he wanted to go home and forget about fighting ali that day.

 

Medical reports do indeed confirm that Liston had a shoulder injury in the first fight, probably going into the fight.

There was suspicion that the second fight was not going to be on the level long before the opening bell. It was held in a high school gymnasium because none of the major venues were prepared to host it. It apears that a suspicious betting pattern had emerged.

 

Can you link us to a page verifying the medical report bit? :think

 

The Liston promotion team had rights to several of Clay/Ali fights if Ali won the first fight.

They were 'Don King-ing" before Don King was around (of course James Braddock did it too and made a fortune off Joe Louis).

 

:-( :-( Oh no...! This old chestnut yet again.....!!!!! Okay,Liston's performances may have been questionable,but to say that Ali built his career on these two fights,is ludicrous. Nothing what happened was Ali's fault. Yet again,there have been contentious issues,and fights throughout boxing history,but,so often,it's only Ali's ones that get mentioned.

 

Sonny Liston,the great intimidator got intimidated,himself. Pure and simple !!

 

It did looked strange, most especially the 2nd fight.

But what Ali accomplished after that sort of eradicated any doubts that those fights would have had a different outcome, fixed or not fixed.

 

In "Facing Ali" (on DVD) George Foreman says that Liston said, "I didn't wanna deal with none of that do, re, mi" (about Ali while training together). Basically saying he didn't feel like going up against a crazy man with an unusual style. That's Foreman's assumption, but I feel like Liston had case of what we saw in Duran when he had his "No Mas" moment.

 

Fixed or not, those fights were farcical.