The Liston/Ali tragedy....

True. Liston may have been slightly past his best for the Ali fights,but no way was he a shell. He'd have,no doubt in my mind,still have beaten any other fighter around at the time.

 

Some people keep trying to shaft Ali's achievements,no matter what.

 

I think people need to accept that Liston's conduct in the ring was really poor by championship standards, even if he did have an injured shoulder.

I'm not saying that to "devalue Ali's achievement", I'm just pointing out the plain truth.
It was an apalling effort by Liston. And the whole affair brought a lot of **** down on boxing at the time, and brought the whole "return bout clause" issue into the limelight again.

People look back in comfort with hindsight and just concentrate on the fine performance of a young Cassius Clay who would go on to be a great fighter, but that's just glossing over the fact that the Liston-Ali fights were terribly disappointing and damaging to the sport.

 

That wasn't about his quitting, but about him looking ineffectual before that.

I agree that the quit job stinks. He showed some proof of his injury afterwards, but whether it was real or not I can't accept that he went out as a champion. You're right that both Patterson and Terrell showed a lot more courage.

 

On this forum I'd say that the opposite is true. It's like the beautiful perfomance in the first fight, which is there to see plainly, just hadn't existed.

 

Well, I think people here always seem to cite Liston as one of Ali's best wins. One of the cornerstones to his greatness, in fact. So, he's given credit.

I can see why - Liston probably was the best fighter he faced in the 1960s.
I dont think Liston was a truly great fighter though, as evidenced by what he did in defense of his title.

 

Liston intimidated by Ali?? Hilarious!!!He`d faced down guys twice as tough and big as Ali. As for comments about him being "shot" and disinterested what about all his fights after Ali??
Watch both fights there is most definitely something dodgy about both...

 

see post #29

 

Possibly. The assassination of Malcolm X doesn't get enough consideration when contemplating what had the most impact on Sonny's mental state in Lewiston. Malcolm's house was mysteriously burned down just before he was killed, the day before a hearing to postpone his eviction date. Ali had the backing of established killers, and no man's fists and body are a match for guns and bullets, even Liston's. Was Sonny unreasonably paranoid? Consider that he may indeed have been murdered at gunpoint.

He got out of Lewiston with his life. Was he explicitly threatened by the NOI? Whether or not he was, it wasn't necessary after Malcolm's house burning and murder. These were dangerous people. (Incidentally, all who were convicted of his murder are now walking the streets. His only confessed killer was able to father a number of children while incarcerated, after killing Malcolm in front of his own wife and kids. Some justice!)

 

against floyd liston knew he could land. Both times the fight was all over once he landed- so yes sonny looked great. floyd was numb after the first punch, a sitting duck.
However, against ali Liston was being made to pay each time he TRIED to land. Its harder to look good when that hapens. He just found ali too slipery.

 

:good exactly. this is how champions should be measured. Liston had some great wins against good contenders, but if one element is lacking it shows up for the title.

 

It could be like the evidence about Liston intentionally blinded Ali. One of Liston's cornermen allegedely admitted to it. It's not strong evidence, but still the SINGLE strongest evidence of anything being fishy in any of the two fights. That should tell you something.[/quote]

I think this is evidence that Liston was throwing the fight on his own. His corner supposedly put some blinding agent on his gloves (there are rumors of them doing the same against Foley). Liston mysteriously fails to capitalize, then pulls out with a shoulder injury. Liston's corner wanted to win the fight, Liston didn't want to.

 

Here's the difference though. Ali won those fights easily and deserves all the credit in the world,

Sonny was not at his best at these two fights. In the first fight, he undertrained and was not ready for a long fight. the second fight he was clearly faded and threw the fight anyways.

 

He sure did. Like everyone at that time. Had more to do with Clay/Ali than Liston. I do think Clay was a bad stylistical match-up for Liston, though.

 

This is how I see it as well. He saw it as an easy pay-day, didn't train hard enough and found himself out of gas after punching mostly air for 5 rounds. The fact that he couldn't even really hurt Clay when he was blinded is what did it, I think. He knew he couldn't win by that point.

In the sixth it was clear that Clay might very well make good on his prediction. My guess is that Liston couldn't handle that. To be set up to be KO'd as predicted by a rank underdog. A 22-year old kid with a big mouth. For a big, tough hard-man like Liston, that was probably unthinkable.