In Defense of Jack Dempsey {article} + The great trainers and fighters on Dempsey

How do we even know Arcel said those quotes in that article?

 

1. "You can't categorically deny it either"

No. But I couldn't categorically deny ANY FIGHT AT ALL might have been fixed.

My point would be that there are plenty of rumours and alleged statements--for example, Fred Fulton said publicly that the Dempsey bout was not on the level. Fulton claimed he and Dempsey had reached an agreement to go the full 10 round ND distance, but that Dempsey sucker punched him.
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New York Times, Feb 6, 1919

MINNESOTA BARS FULTON

BOXING COMMISSION ACTS ON HIS STATEMENT ABOUT DEMPSEY BOUT

Minneapolis, Feb 5---The Minnesota Boxing Commission, meeting here late today, voted to bar indefinitely Fred Fulton, Rochester, Minn, heavyweight fighter from boxing or sparring in Minnesota rings.

No reason was given, but it is understood the Commissioners took the action after discussion of Fulton's statement made recently in San Francisco that Jack Dempsey had "double-crossed" him in the fight of July 27 last.
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Do I believe Fulton? No. I don't put any stock in this at all. But Fulton is a better source for the Fulton-Dempsey fight than Maxine Cates is for the Dempsey-Flynn fight.

2. "may be a complete fabrication for all I know-much like those newspaper may have been too for all I know."

No sense relying on crackpot cynicism. Pick up a phone. Ask the operater for the Salt Lake City area code. Dial the Salt Lake operater. Get the number of the library. Dial it. Talk to the librarian and ask her to send xeroxes of the original newspaper reports. You will not have to pay.

Frankly, I think it silly to assume anyone would go to the trouble of writing up fake newspaper reports when it is such an easy task to check them out.

3. By the way, if you are going to doubt newspaper accounts, how would you know that a fight took place at all?

4. Sudenberg--I saw a show called "This is Your Life" back in the fifties in which Dempsey was the guest of honor. Sudenberg was on the show and shook hands with Jack and chatted a bit with him. He was not a big fellow.

 

I disagree.
I dont think Liston's opposition was stronger.
Head-to-head I think Dempsey's far more reliable against the field too.
And Dempsey's showings against Tunney are way more forgivable than Liston's farcical losses to Clay/Ali.

 

Burt- I think any rational thinking fan who does his research realizes Dempsey had no fear of Wills.

But I also think that Dempsey's victory over Willard has been mythologized to an extent. I mean, that fight was over after the first KD. Kudos for Dempsey for that combination. But I don't give him the immense credit that others do for standing over the fallen man and punching him just as he gets up or while he is still on the ground or while he is caught in the ropes. Big deal. And for all that onslaught and liberal enforcement of boxing etiquette Willard still survived three rounds.

 

The proper way for an historian is to footnote the original source.

 

I like Monte Cox but it's irritating that he glorifies Dempsey so much and has expalanation for all his flops and on the other hand he says that Walcott and Charles were "old" when Marciano fought them. They maybe were old according to metrics but they were great heavies even after crossing 30.

 

You give Dempsey credit for getting the fight over about 90 seconds into the contest then ?

 

No, I give him credit but the fight was staged in such a way the Willard had little to no chance of getting back into the fight once he was down the first time.

Yeah, it was a slaughter, but largely because of the refereeing and Willard's ridiculous durability.

 

I think Liston beat better opposition

Patterson 2x > Sharkey

Machen, Folley > Miskey, Gibbons

Machen and Folley too me seem to have more developed skills..just better, more refined technique/ fundamentals than the boxers of 1920's.

Williams, Valdes, DeJohn > Willard, Fulton, Firpo

Again...I personally believe the sluggers of Dempsey's era looked more crude than the sluggers of the 1950-60s.



Let's not forget Liston beat the number one man of his era..Twice in devastating fashion. Dempsey never even fought the # 1 man of his era.

 

Disagree. I do respect your opinion though Unforgiven. You're a great boxing Mind.


I rank Liston # 3 all time, while I rank Dempsey around # 11. Too me, Liston was more dominant in his era than Dempsey was, and didn't avoid challengers the way Dempsey did. Dempsey not fighting Wills and Greb really hurt his legacy. I also think Liston at 6'1 212lb with an 84" reach combined with ATG Jab, Monsterous Two Fisted Power,Very Solid Boxing Skills, and tough chin make him a beast to deal with H2H. Dempsey with his unbelievable footwork for a two fisted knockout puncher rates up there, but I feel if Dempsey walked into Sonny..he would get hammered. I also think Liston matches up better with the rest of the field. I can see Dempsey being outboxed by some, I can see him being outslugged by some. Hard for me to envision anyone outside of a select few doing it to Liston. I think Dempsey was susceptible to right hands with the way he kept his left low, and I feel he really abandoned his defense when on the attack and got a bit reckless at times. I think Liston kept himself much more composed and relaxed at all times than Jack.

 

Those were the Queensberry rules.
Other fighters got off the floor and got back into fights, and won fights, under the same set of conditions. Except for the Dempsey factor - only Dempsey's prowess made the situation hopeless, if it was.
I'd argue that Willard staged quite a decent stand in the 2nd and 3rd rounds though, considering what he'd endured in the 1st.

The only thing the referee could have done different is to have waved it off sooner, in which case it would have been a 1st round blow-out.

 

That's your opinion. I dont agree with some of those, for example asserting that a 1959 Valdes is better than Willard, Fulton or Firpo.
I dont believe the 1950s yielded more skillful fighters either.

I think in terms of durability Dempsey beat the more rugged men. He knocked out a few good fighters who had never been KO'd before, and were rarely KO'd after.

 

Thanks. And likewise, I respect yours.

I dont think Dempsey would "walk into" Sonny. He would respect Liston's size and strength, and box accordingly. Just like he didn't walk into Willard. Dempsey said it himself "You cant fight a man like Willard, you have to box him."

I simply dont rate Sonny as high as you do. Of course he's a massive task for anyone to beat, I just think he's beatable by a good number of the greats, the same way you reckon Dempsey is.

 

Yes the Dempsey ko over Willard is now folk lore.When won the heavyweight belt from the great but older Jack Johnson, he was thought
to be unhurtable..The fact that he once killed a man in the ring,Bull Young
added to the fact that the giant Willard was never floored in his career.
When the much smaller Dempsey dropped Willard seven times in the
first round amazed the boxing world of 1919..The first left hook young Dempsey floored big Willard has to be one of the hardest punches ever landed,along with Louis's right hand that flattened Paolino Uzcudun and
the right hand that kod Walcott that Marciano landed in 1952..
It is true that Dempsey stood over the fallen Willard when Jess was on the
canvas, but it was not illegal at that time...
It is also true that at any other time or referee, Jess Willard would have
been kod after the third or fourth knockdown...Any other referee would
have stopped the slaughter in the FIRST round....Should have beena
first round kayo...
One other point to make...Abe Simon a large "catcher" lasted 13 rounds
with Joe Louis in 1941 and 6 rounds in 1942...Abe had no defense but
still took all of Louis's bombs for 13 and 6 rounds..There is no way in the world that Simon would have lasted those rounds with the prime
Manassa Mauler...As I have posted before, Dempsey and Louis were the
two best heavyweights that ever lived with Joe Louis having the best
heavyweight reign....Take care S...

 

Just rewatched it for the first time in years. I drop my dispute. The ref actually kept some distance between the two when Willard was getting up. And yes, I know there was no neutral corner rule. I just seemed to remember it being that Willard wasn't even off the ground half the time. Willard got tied up in the ropes by about the 4th KD and Dempsey continued to punch, but the ref did nothing, so no foul. Funny, I hadn't watched that in a couple years and memory just painted it differently.

And yes, Willard made a decent stand in rounds 2 and 3. He was just too chewed up to continue.