To be honest with you, Holmes was past it when Tyson got him, BUT the way he got him was incredible, as for the 70s, I think Holmes, Holyfield and Tyson would've fit right in.
Peak Tyson yes, Holyfield not as much no also your right about the incredible way tyson got to him, but lets not take anything away from how good holmes was... he came back in the MID 90's to beat Ray Mercer, as well as extend Evander Holyfield who just couldnt do anything to finish off the older man.
And? He was a swarmer in style. That doesn't mean he didn't have other intangibles going for him. His jab was pretty decent when he needed it, yes he wasn't a bad counter-puncher. But if you don't think he is a swarmer, I don't know what to say. That is his game, that is how Cus D'Amato invented him. I am talking about a prime '73 version of Foreman, not the one who tried to reinvent himself a more patient, calculated approach after Zaire. And Lyle was not a swarmer. He was a relatively crude boxer-puncher to me. Sort of like a boxer-slugger if you will. 'Out-punch' him is a very simplistic term to use. Foreman is not an easy guy to get inside of because he can shut-down you down with brute strength, aswell as the threat of his power. Tyson essentially is a mid-range fighter just the same as Foreman is. It's going to be difficult to consistantly beat Foreman to the punch when you are sitting at mid-range with him when he's consistently throwing bombs at you with a two-handed attack from all angles. Even with Tyson's superior hand-speed and head movement. Foreman's chin was iron. Lyle was a massive puncher, Zaire he wasn't pacing himself and was gradually broken down by Ali. Young fight was round 12, he was tired by the end and could barely keep himself up. It wasn't one punch either, the right-hand put him down when he was moving but he got caught with a big double left-hook to body and head just before, and a 1-2 before the KD aswell. Holyfield threw some hellish combinations at Foreman and he took them. I guess we will agree to disagree then. I don't feel he was vulnerable to only one style. I feel an ATG slugger like Foreman, would shut-down an inside fight, force it to mid-range where he would bomb Tyson out. But there we go, you are entitled to your opinion.
He did. I enjoyed listening to Tyson talk about the past greats, he has an unusual respect and even reverence for them.
Frazier would get crushed by Tyson. Way too fast, more power, better defense, better chin. As for heart, I don't think prime Tyson had no heart and in this fight, heart wouldn't even come into question, it would not last long enough. Tyson is just a better fighter than Frazier.
It's actually a valid point. In theory, there are no guarentees he would have been a champion in the Ali/Frazier/Foreman era. For me, he isn't beating the Ali of the Ernie Terrell/Cleveland Williams fights in '66/67. He isn't beating Foreman for me either from '73, which sort of rules out two chances straight away. He may have a chance against Frazier on styles, but could he get to him before Foreman? And it's dependent on when he came onto the scene. Remember he only had about 4 years of prime before it all went tits up. If he got onto the scene in the late 60's, might have been too late by the time he had a more vulnerable title opponent.
I agree with most of what you said but I think Tyson would've had a very hard time with a peak Holmes, as its not a good style match-up for him, but yes Tyson's KO of Holmes was incredible.
I understand how you see it, but Holmes got massacred by Tyson and took a pretty bad beating from Holyfield. That being said: Holmes was a damn good champion and had a very troublesome style for anyone. Old Foreman fought only Holy too, and paid for it. They steered clear of Bowe and Lewis for a reason. IMO, prime Lewis beats prime Ali, prime Bowe and prime young Foreman is damn close, prime Tyson beats prime Frazier, and prime Holyfield beats Norton, Quarry, Lyle, Ellis, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Bugner or any of the contenders of that era. But we are all entitled to our opinions, and I may be wrong. All good fights though, except Frazier/Tyson. Thats a whitewash.
you are assuming that if tyson was around in that era his prime would only last 4 years? void of his personal predicaments and void of losing both d'mato and ending with a shambles of a team around him? void of him abusing himself like a nutcase on substances and all sorts? atsch truth is, no one knows how long tyson's prime could have lasted if he had all the normal, fundamental factors in place that are necessary for a stable progression of any great fighter. and at the same time in your opinion he wouldnt have beaten ali or foreman....? IMO the only person that beats him is Ali....a case can be made for foreman, but i still pick tyson...and i pick tyson over frazier, norton, shavers, holmes. so IMO he belongs
thanks dude. lets stick to the topic, otherwise we'r going to have a sub thread starting in here lol because i disagree fundamentally with almost everything you've said there....particularly lewis beating Ali atsch (ALSO holyfield didnt lay a beatdown on foreman, and neither on holmes, he WON yes...but didnt BEAT them (i.e. tyson vs holmes) and the only reason they didnt fight lewis, was because lewis wasnt the champion in the early-mid 90's and had been KTFO by mcCall, and struggled badly against bruno). holyfield was champ.