Does Dempsey get a rough ride over the colour line?

Welcome aboard,,,You hit the target on this matter...As we know, by
photos of Dempsey and Wills actual signing for a bout,which fell through.
This is an established fact...Dempsey had black sparring partners such as Big Bill Tate, George Godfrey,in his camp. He had a native American Indian in his camp also in training with him..Dempsey himself had Indian blood
in his veins..As to Langford who was born in 1883, Sam wasin his late thirties and past his peak when Dempsey was champion...
In short Jack Dempsey has gotten a bad rap by individuals who single
Dempsey out while not critical of other great fighters such as Louis and Robinson [murderers row], who did pretty much the same thing, for
whatever career reasons and circumstances...Not fair I say to the
memory of the Manassa Mauler, today....

 

He gets a rougher ride than Tommy Loughran, and Gene Tunney, neither of whom ever fought a black man.

 

Dempsey himself was part Choctaw and part Cherokee, was actually the first heavyweight champion to have ever resided in Harlem, and would probably be classified by a modern United States census as "Native American," rather than, "White." (Beyond that, he was born to Mormon parents, representing a further marginalized category of citizens.) That he was of a minority background is often conveniently swept under the rug by modern revisionist critics.

The fact is that Dempsey did want to fight Wills, was famously photographed signing a contract with Harry, and Wills himself stated, "It wasn't Jack's fault," that a match between them never came off. The regard Dempsey had for Langford was mutual, and Sam went on record as favouring him over Wills if they ever met. (Whether or not Langford actually believed this, or merely expressed it for social acceptability is another question.)

We can't validly apply modern "sensibilities" to the societal mores of nine decades ago. Dempsey certainly did not barricade himself against other (repeat: OTHER) minorities to the extent Tunney and Loughran did, and Jack Johnson was barely better while champion in this respect. (When Lil' Artha' did cross the colour line himself in defense of his title, it was in Paris, and not with McVea, Jeannette or Langford, but fringe token contender Jim Johnson.)

Rickard and Kearns were all about the money, and they succeeded wildly. Beyond that, I don't blame Rickard for not wanting a repeat of the Johnson-Jeffries riots (with a death toll of 23 blacks) on his conscience. The consequent 38 year Congressional ban on the interstate transport of boxing films was devastating enough to the history of the sport. A 1920s repeat might have re-criminalized boxing entirely at a time when Rickard and Dempsey were lifting it out of the doldrums on their shoulders. The early and middle 1920s were a critical, tenuous time in the sport's ascension to universal cultural acceptance in America.

Louis, like Dempsey, was of a mixed ethnic background. Of his 25 title defenses, three were against Afro-American opponents. His friend, John Henry Lewis, was a charity case, like Miske was for Dempsey. Otherwise, the first full blooded African-American to get a fully earned HW title shot after Jack Johnson in 1908 was Jersey Joe Walcott nearly 40 years later.

In a genuinely equitable world, Braddock would be likewise getting slammed for sitting on the title for two years before giving the first shot to Louis, instead of the contender who it rightfully belonged to, Schmeling.

 

BRAVO, :good

 

Louis wasn't like Dempsey at all. Joe Louis fought 4 black hall of famers, John Henry Lewis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Jimmy Bivins. How many black hall of famers did Dempsey fight? Louis fought and beat the best of his era, Dempsey did not.

 

Louis fought Charles and Bivins when he was on the come back trail.In 12 years as Champion , Louis only fought 2 black challengers, in 24 defences.
Suzie ,you know this very well, were there not deserving black opponents?

Murray,Franklin etc?

 

Yes. The only black contender worth a **** during his time was Wills and pretty much everyone expected him to destroy him anyway. Rickard was the one who kept Dempsey from signing that, so...

 

1. "Louis fought Charles and Bivins when he was on the comeback trail."

He still fought them.

2. "Louis only fought 2 black challengers"

How many did all the champions from Sullivan to Braddock fight? Together?

I would say three. Burns fought Johnson. Johnson fought Battling Johnson. Braddock fought Louis. Louis' three title defenses were as many as all these champions put together over the previous half-century.

Jeffries and Griffin in 1901 was an exhibition.

3. "Franklin, Murray, etc"

Most of these deserving black challengers peaked during the war years while Louis was in the service and not able to defend. I think there is room to criticize Louis for not defending against Elmer Ray, but Walcott proved better than Ray and Louis defended against Walcott.

4. Comparing the situation between Dempsey and Wills to anything Joe Louis did is unfair to Louis, regardless of one's take on Dempsey not being responsible for the Wills fight never coming off.

 

"pretty much everyone expected him to destroy him anyway"

This is from Time Magazine, 8-17-1925:

"Jack Dempsey was introduced from the ring at the opening of the Olympic Stadium in Los Angeles. Booing thundered from the topmost rim of the amphitheatre, mixed with a chant of "Bring on Wills." Dempsey turned the color of an embarressed orchid and crept back to his seat."

Time Magazine, 4-28-1923:

"It is generally accepted opinion that Harry Wills is the only man in the game who can stand at Dempsey's level. There is vague talk of a fight between the two at the Polo Grounds on Labor Day."

Time Magazine, 7-30-1923

"Noteworthy was the arrival of Harry Wills, logical condidate for a chance at Dempsey. He was cheered every step of the way from the entrance in centre field to his seat near the ring."

Time Magazine 1-7-1924

Jack Dempsey--"All this talk that I'm afraid to fight Harry Wills is getting on my nerves. Let me get in the ring with Harry and I'll win in a round or two."

Time Magazine 4-7-1924

Tex Rickard--"Wills agrees to fight any heavyweight I select, leading up to a match with Dempsey."

Wills was expected to meet Firpo. If Wills wins, Rickard will let him have at Dempsey.

**Wills won, but no Dempsey.

 

Because he remains a much bigger name and the fact that the number one contender his entire championship reign was black, defeated tougher men than Dempsey ever did and Dempsey never fought him ... I honestly feel he gets an easy ride as most have forgotten Wills ever existed ...

 

Yes and no.

Of all the champions who drew the colour line Dempsey was probably the least willing. He did not have a problem with meeting black challengers in principle and he saw the colour line as being outdated.

On the other hand he probably needed Harry Wills on his resume more than John L Sullivan needed Peter Jackson or Jim Jeffries needed Denver Ed Martin.

 

Dempsey should have fought Wills,for one reason and another he did not ,but I think it is far from clear that Wills was the number 1 contender for the duration of Dempsey's reign, a recent thread addressed this question.

Lets not forget that two of Will's biggest wins were over Fulton and Firpo,whom Dempsey had allready demolished.
Or, that Dempsey kod Sharkey who decisively beat Wills, and Godfrey.

 

I would say Wills biggest wins are over a 1914 Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, and Sam McVea. All of them Hall of Famers.

 

surely if mayweather never fights pac it will affect his standing in history so it cant be that silly to feel dempsey is a little tainted for not fighting his no1 challenger .